FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: 427HISS on January 26, 2021, 09:04:57 PM
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I'm pretty sure I know the answer, bit I'll ask anyway.
Is there any difference in power between a solid roller and a hydro roller cam ?
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I think it's pretty well established that they'll allow more rpm, especially in an FE with heavy valvetrain, although our resident builders have been make headway in expanding the rpm range.
The interesting question is if a solid roller would make more power in say a 6500rpm max application. Guessing we don't really know, as it's not been done truly back to back, it's hard to exactly duplicate lobe specs even if we did, and doubt it's a small sample size of guys hassling with a solid roller for that range.
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Having run (running now) a hydro roller in s "mild race" setup, I'd opt for a solid roller just to be sure everything was available at RPM ranges like 6500. I'd running a Howards hydro with their roller lifters in the 351C and it for sure signs off at 6500. The solids are lighter parts too. If I wasn't building a full new motor for the dragster I'd be buying solids to put on that hydro cam, just to get some RPM back. Air shifter is set at 6300. If you go solid, the extra expense is in the lifters - you want pressure oil units and not cheaper splash oil, especially if its a street/strip application.
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The interesting question is if a solid roller would make more power in say a 6500rpm max application. Guessing we don't really know, as it's not been done truly back to back, it's hard to exactly duplicate lobe specs even if we did, and doubt it's a small sample size of guys hassling with a solid roller for that range.
The answer to the first part of the question is an absolute, yes it is possible to make more power at 6500 R.P.M., and even less utilizing a mechanical roller cam versus a hydraulic. But the second thought of duplicate lobe specs nullifies the the first as it either restrains the potential in the attributes of the mechanical function over the hydraulic, or creates one not compatible with the hydraulic. ;)
Scott.
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IIRC, Hot Rod/Engine Masters has a show about running solid rollers on a hydro roller cam. And the conclusion was, yes - it made more power. Had to tighten the lash way up as I recall.
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IIRC, Hot Rod/Engine Masters has a show about running solid rollers on a hydro roller cam. And the conclusion was, yes - it made more power. Had to tighten the lash way up as I recall.
And this generally should not be practiced as mechanical cams, roller or flat, present "take-up" ramps to absorb the lash sums more gently versus otherwise; and this would probably explain the reasoning to reducing the lash value to a minimum in the example. But this also would not still provide all of the potential available as the lobe would still be of that deemed suitable for the hydraulic intention. ;)
Scott.
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IIRC, Hot Rod/Engine Masters has a show about running solid rollers on a hydro roller cam. And the conclusion was, yes - it made more power. Had to tighten the lash way up as I recall.
That means that the cam was not the right fit in the first place and was probably on the line of being too aggressive for the lifters/valve spring package.
For some reason, if you visit some of the Pontiac forums, none of them will run a hydraulic roller cam without solid lifters. It always aggravated the snot out of me because it was like this unwritten rule that it had to be done that way. If you look at some of the cams they were trying to run, they were all aggressive lobed hydraulic rollers and most of them didn't have a clue as to what spring pressures or lifter setups that they needed to be paired with.
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It seems to me, that Mummert almost won the last EMC, with a 289, using solid rollers on a hydraulic cam.
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It seems to me, that Mummert almost won the last EMC, with a 289, using solid rollers on a hydraulic cam.
Frank, there's a difference between picking out a Comp Xtreme Energy cam and running solids on it because it otherwise won't work with the lifters and springs, and then using a specified custom camshaft. There are quite a few lobes that are hybrid lobes, meant to be used with either scenario and they don't have to be ran at .004-.005" lash.
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For some reason, if you visit some of the Pontiac forums, none of them will run a hydraulic roller cam without solid lifters. It always aggravated the snot out of me because it was like this unwritten rule that it had to be done that way. If you look at some of the cams they were trying to run, they were all aggressive lobed hydraulic rollers and most of them didn't have a clue as to what spring pressures or lifter setups that they needed to be paired with.
Hmm, sounds like a bunch of old farts running a non-mainstream antiquated platform last produced forty years ago that are clinging to a bunch of wives tales or information from 1987! Why would they do something silly like that?
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That 289 EMC engine used a "catalog" hydraulic roller camshaft with solid roller lifters, and .004" hot lash. As I have said many times here over the years, back in 1988, I was one of the first to use a custom small base circle hydraulic roller camshaft in the 351W, and Crane Cams made a run of seven camshafts, of which I ordered three. I asked at that time if I could run a solid roller on their camshaft, and the engineer came back with "it is possible if you tighten the lash to ~.004" hot lash". I built three stroker 351Ws during that time, and we used that lash as a starting point. It can be done if everything in the valve train is perfect. If not, the camshaft lobes will wear and the needles will flatten and come out of their cages. BTDT, Joe-JDC
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That 289 EMC engine used a "catalog" hydraulic roller camshaft with solid roller lifters, and .004" hot lash. As I have said many times here over the years, back in 1988, I was one of the first to use a custom small base circle hydraulic roller camshaft in the 351W, and Crane Cams made a run of seven camshafts, of which I ordered three. I asked at that time if I could run a solid roller on their camshaft, and the engineer came back with "it is possible if you tighten the lash to ~.004" hot lash". I built three stroker 351Ws during that time, and we used that lash as a starting point. It can be done if everything in the valve train is perfect. If not, the camshaft lobes will wear and the needles will flatten and come out of their cages. BTDT, Joe-JDC
What were the rules for on that EMC engine?
I can see using a mild solid roller camshaft with a hydraulic roller lifter, but there is nothing to be gained by using a solid lifter on a hydraulic cam.....unless that was the only lobe that could be used to come up with the net valve lift that was specified including lash.
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I can see using a mild solid roller camshaft with a hydraulic roller lifter, .............
Keep in mind one this might result in some exaggerated "off the seat" duration values! ::)
And on the latter, we have witnessed many an instance of the hydraulics bleeding down "some" at high speed, and/or perhaps due to aeration within the oil, hence a loss of some cam effect; so for short duration run events and particularly "dyno-mule" session engine events where reasonable life spans are traded for "one-run-wonders" and bragging rights, one might actually pickup some here. ;)
Scott.
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EMC had .600" maximum lift at valve. Joe-JDC
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IIRC, Hot Rod/Engine Masters has a show about running solid rollers on a hydro roller cam. And the conclusion was, yes - it made more power. Had to tighten the lash way up as I recall.
Frieberger is a HACK and yes I would say it to his face because he admits it on TV! Just like when he experimented with less oil in the pan making more HP. Heck take ALL the oil out for one pull! KABOOM!!!! But it was worth 10 HP 'til she blew! He is a Darwin award winner for sure.
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It's an advantage when your job is to say "What happens when we do this?" No matter the consequences.
Sure would make my days at work be a LOT less stressful!!
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IIRC, Hot Rod/Engine Masters has a show about running solid rollers on a hydro roller cam. And the conclusion was, yes - it made more power. Had to tighten the lash way up as I recall.
Frieberger is a HACK and yes I would say it to his face because he admits it on TV! Just like when he experimented with less oil in the pan making more HP. Heck take ALL the oil out for one pull! KABOOM!!!! But it was worth 10 HP 'til she blew! He is a Darwin award winner for sure.
Didn't know he did that. Not engine related but......
Long ago, we saw Glidden's crew drain about 1qt. of oil from the Lenco and totally drain the gear lube from the 9" rearend (!) just before the final run at Union Grove in WI on a late Sunday afternoon. He beat Nicholson (both in 351C powered Pro Stockers) by the slimmest of margins. They told my bro' the lessened drag on both units was worth a tad of e.t. but admitted doing so was rare. Talk about doing all can to win!
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When thousandths of a second were on the line , we did some questionable stuff like pure ATF in the diff for ONE pass. ( still dumb to this day) Yes it ruined the ring and pinion. The Glidden story is true. He isn't the only one to pull some oil out of a Lenco OR have lightened internals in one.
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IIRC, Hot Rod/Engine Masters has a show about running solid rollers on a hydro roller cam. And the conclusion was, yes - it made more power. Had to tighten the lash way up as I recall.
Frieberger is a HACK and yes I would say it to his face because he admits it on TV! Just like when he experimented with less oil in the pan making more HP. Heck take ALL the oil out for one pull! KABOOM!!!! But it was worth 10 HP 'til she blew! He is a Darwin award winner for sure.
LOL - Never meant it as a recommendation, just noting that I saw the test and results. It's for sure a cludge. I'd rather run the correct setup.
I'd tend to agree about Frydaddy, having watched those guys on the Roadkill thing. In general, I've seen them do things that any slightly more competent car person would have done way better. Watched them do the engine swap in the Summit Racing parking lot. We used to do swaps and upgrades behind the Wedgwood Bowling Alley in a single evening. Updated the drivetrain in a Z-28 one night starting about 6 and they were doing test burnouts in the alley by midnight. They did one show using a 351C and they were completely clueless about all of it. Didn't watch much after that one. Remembering that Roadkill and the like are primarily entertainment and not technical references or education.
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...Just like when he experimented with less oil in the pan making more HP. Heck take ALL the oil out for one pull! KABOOM!!!! ...
You do things for knowledge. He does things for ratings. While they aren't mutually exclusive by rule, the don't normally coincide. He is by no means the worst of the lot. Some of these guys (and gals, now) go by what they think they know. And never let the facts get in the way of a good story line.
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Anytime RK,RKG and now Faster With Fineigenn get near a Ford engine install they forget the rear block plate....
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Anytime RK,RKG and now Faster With Fineigenn get near a Ford engine install they forget the rear block plate....
100%. The Chevy-centric knowledge base sticks out. Had to explain that to my friend that told me I needed to fab a full rear plate for the dragster. Using the block plate and the half motor plate as a pattern, then will have to route out the new plate to let the starter pass through .250 worth of aluminum to bolt to the block plate/bell combo for a 157 tooth small block. He's like "That's crazy stuff". ;D
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Anytime RK,RKG and now Faster With Fineigenn get near a Ford engine install they forget the rear block plate....
Anytime they get NEAR a Ford I want to buy it before they destroy it.
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Please don't misunderstand me, Dave is a nice guy and I see him often at local swap meets. My issue is with the chewing gum and bailing wire approach. Making a junkyard engine run is NO great accomplishment. Building death traps isn't either.
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Totally get it. Hey I’m employed by the TV industry. He has his schtick and it’s all good. And he seems to be a great guy.
BUT damn cars like that 63 or 64 Gal that they pulled out of a yard to “fix”. That one hurt. I wanted to buy that car so badly to give it the care it deserves.
But we all get it Randy, no worries, btw my pistons look awesome.
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I was just about done with the show when they found the Mach 1, used a giant forklift to pick it up, proceeded to get it running, then practically destroyed the car running the dog$@#* out of it before they even left the parking lot. It's bad enough when they destroy average junk just for ratings, but when they were doing that to a desirable car, I was ready to call it quits. I just wasn't going to watch idiots destroy valuable cars.
To my surprise though, and to Frieburgers credit, he actually rescued the car after the show and has put a lot of money into it and made it a very respectable street car. Probably nicer than any other car he has, and which he readily admits is his favorite driver now. Not long after that episode aired, he actually came up to me at Drag Week to look over my car and talk about it, getting ideas for what he wanted to do to his Mach.
(https://i.postimg.cc/YCFFTY09/20170910_153248_1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
He does seem like a nice guy, and he's probably just trying to make a decent living by taking advantage of the opportunities given to him. Hard to blame a guy for that.
Finnegan seems to be able to blow up any engine that he has, no matter how well it's built, or by whom. That always smacks of somebody with more money than brains. But hey, if you can afford to toss another $30k+ for another new engine, for the umpteenth time, then I guess why not? ::)
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It's an advantage when your job is to say "What happens when we do this?" No matter the consequences.
Sure would make my days at work be a LOT less stressful!!
LOL! I have to admit, when working with/on old junk at my job, I've done that a time or two when nobody was around. Usually with a fire extinguisher handy ;D
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When Stock Eliminator cars were first trying to get in the 9's one A/SA Hemi Mopar ran and there was a bang and parts on the track at 1000 feet (still went 10.10 as i recall) No smoke and no oil on the track. The track cleanup consisted of picking up a smoking hot connecting rod and half a Hemi piston off the track which they sat on the guardwall near the starting line. I grabbed it and took it to the guys pit area. He was towed back and jacked the car up and there was a huge gash in the bottom of the oil pan sump.
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When Finnigan and Co. destroyed that 64 Galaxie I wanted to kick both of them in the junk for what they did. The fix could have been so easy but nooooo...They had to "See what happen if they did [fill in the blank] Then when they did that "engine swap" in the parking lot, that was just over the top stupid. IIRC it was a trade school class lesson on engine rebuilding 101. Did they preoil it, nope. They didn't even bar the engine over to see if it was able to spin. Nope. It didn't help either when one of them made a negative comment about "having to work on a Ford POS or something to that effect and how Mopars/GMs were more to their liking. Good...Go destroy those and leave the Fords to people who care.
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Your pic for quality and money. I will only drag and road race a few events, so I don't need $10,000 in my valve train, but high quality anyway.
http://www.camresearchcorp.com/.../uncate.../lifters-roller/ .
Lifters – Roller | Cam Reseach – Custom Ford Camshafts
CAMRESEARCHCORP.COM
Lifters – Roller | Cam Reseach – Custom Ford Camshafts
https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.crower.com%2Flifters%2Fenduramax-roller-lifters-ford-390-427-fe-63-up-9265.html%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR0v9iazM5p5LOZCZOdb5rMtqjRKvBfqzK1gqA_RCt8M9_vOj8kZKLjlbBY&h=AT20HoGNkzsjxZaFm-Tpf-rEOdVceYe-70E8Dvem9VckOcE4JTvZDzuYExZ3cb0pQv7mFadIVKL-2VDnvWJ1FJYy4nr9GrR6xv1hPjZqEwuxJHvzGyHt07rgl9pVrxzgAQ&__tn__=R]-R&c[0]=AT17o3PGlztilfiJvU_JBRoDamEVP0bRJjUCiCWIogw3gj656JAiVX22wQZxQiLLmhhG8DZnvxokAd_PVZzDexD3B_z8SbpiLzYh30gGTdLzOmBHgyw6Q1piWW5N1F72YOHV0WfVTYQesdQuzxdkBwkZxq9wWSfOiJ4
https://straubtech-morellifters.com/ford/mechanical-solid-ford/ford-bb-mech-roller-lifters-5520?fbclid=IwAR3AAirn7Ml5CsCPOHK7i-CrNXy7hEFu3Oyp7o-qQCtHUroLlkmQshOINno
https://www.competitionproducts.com/Howards-Cams-Street-Max-Mechanical-Roller-Lifters/productinfo/HRC91254/
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/isk-3972rhezx/make/ford
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cro-66216h-16/make/ford
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lunati-72434-16-Tie-Bar-Solid-Roller-Lifters-Set-for-Ford-FE-352-428ci/192057901414?
epid=1717834487&hash=item2cb78b0166%3Ag%3A1K4AAOSw6-tbq9Wv&fbclid=IwAR3nVOK6BfUEvCeWT3h6N_hS1n5sU5aCL3-yUn9SNVAMBW8KWWS_45eRTks
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Isky Red Zones, go big or go home...
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Any comments on your choice and why ?
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I can give a couple of reasons as I chose them.
American company (Johnson) built. Bushing not needles. Wide footprint. Isky is old (quality) racing.
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I'm running Howards Race Max pressure feed in my dragster. No issues so far. I may ask about getting them looked at next year or year after, just as a safety check.
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In my case. I'm a guy wanting a drag engine, on the street, but we all know that's just not gonna happen with most people.
I built a 427 Cobra back in 2000, and bought a ready running mild 428FE. It broke the rocker shaft at number one cylinder. I decide to rebuild it and had
Comp Cams grind me a solid flat tappet, 550 lift, 252/260 @.050 cam. I did some mild porting on the steel FE heads. Being a 360 sprint car racer I was never happy with the engine, just not enough power even in a 427 Cobra.
I worked with a engine builder on a aluminum 427 side oiler block, boring & stocking it to 527 cid, with all well known assembly parts. He ended up steeling it all, so that was over 10k.
15 years later I bought a complete Dove engine. The cam is weak so I'm replacing it, the lifters, springs etc. Brent here knows the story.
I'm going back and fourth on a hydraulic roller or a solid roller. With my recent illness, among other health issues, this will be my last engine and may have to stop driving in five years or so. I need to get as much power as I can,... out of this engine and might use a solid roller cam to get there. My intent here was just to ask about my subject, but this discussion relates to by cam type and specs. It's been a long time to save money and researching for the build and asking and learning as much as I can from several sources, as there's many ways to build a custom engine. I'd like to use pressurized solid rollers lifters, so they sound like they'll live on the street, unless you guys advise me to use hydraulic rollers ?
So, I'll be mainly driving on the street, but I'm always on the throttle in my Cobra, with up around 5,500 RPM or so. I drag the car a couple of times per season. I'll give you details tomorrow.
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Didnt you already buy everything from Cam Research?
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Isky Red Zones, go big or go home...
These Here ?
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/isk-3972rhezx/make/ford
Expensive.
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Those are for a small block ford
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I'm running the Crower HIPPO lifters. Very nice parts. I wouldn't hesitate using them on the street. I am.