FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: fairlaniac on April 05, 2021, 11:05:21 AM
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So I received my new TKX. I bought it from Hanlon Motorsports in St. Peters, PA. Good guy, dealt with him years ago with my WCT-5's in my old 5.0's. He's pretty busy and said it will be a few weeks until he can help with my input shaft mods. He's worried about the possibility of screwing up the input while modifying it. Apparently there are no "spare" inputs as all are heading for production units.
So to can get a jump on my thoughts. I'm thinking all I need is to cut the snout to the length of my 1-3/8-10 toploader input and turn the splines down for proper pilot engagement? I'm planning on using my Lakewood Scattershield, unless.......? Are the Quicktime bell housings for FE designed for the short input or longer like SBF? If the TKX fits without an input modification I might just get the Quicktime. If both are the same depth I may just keep the Lakewood.
Brent Lykins mentioned to use a small input fork and t/o bearing. I assume the smaller diameter bearing would not contact the three fingers on my Ram pressure plate? What are my options there, diaphram style pressure plate?
I know there isn't much experience on the TKX yet but thought some of you might have some good thoughts going forward.
According to an email I got from Tremec this morning. A "short" input for the TKX for Fords is something wayyyyy out there.
Thanks,
(http://www.fairlanet.com/images/tkx.jpg)
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You will need a different pressure plate, the throw out bearing will not contact the fingers in the right spot.
Cutting the input shaft down is pretty involved, it has to be cut down in several spots and the input shaft bearing retainer has to be cut down too.
They are not cheap, but a Quicktime for a standard length input TKO would be a lot easier...
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Good to see the TKX really does exist!
On my TKO, the shorter input shaft was important so the shifter tower fit into the existing tunnel hump, and the driveshaft length stayed the same as a toploader, since I had recently spent a good bit of money on the driveshaft.
From the pic of the TKX, the tunnel hump may not be as big a deal since the tower looks shorter than on a TKO. Seems like a calculation of the cost of a spacer (or new scattershield) and a driveshaft revision, vs the cost of a shorter input shaft.
I've had good luck with the McLeod diaphragm pressure plate and disc with my setup, and has held up well going low 11s.
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Good to see the TKX really does exist!
On my TKO, the shorter input shaft was important so the shifter tower fit into the existing tunnel hump, and the driveshaft length stayed the same as a toploader, since I had recently spent a good bit of money on the driveshaft.
From the pic of the TKX, the tunnel hump may not be as big a deal since the tower looks shorter than on a TKO. Seems like a calculation of the cost of a spacer (or new scattershield) and a driveshaft revision, vs the cost of a shorter input shaft.
I've has good luck with the McLeod diaphragm pressure plate and disc with my setup, and has held up well going low 11s.
So it looks like the Quicktime RM-6056 is 7.150 deep. Using this would require no need for the input mods, correct? Maybe that is the way to go? Would the Quicktime use a small input Ford fork?
Thanks,
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Good to see the TKX really does exist!
On my TKO, the shorter input shaft was important so the shifter tower fit into the existing tunnel hump, and the driveshaft length stayed the same as a toploader, since I had recently spent a good bit of money on the driveshaft.
From the pic of the TKX, the tunnel hump may not be as big a deal since the tower looks shorter than on a TKO. Seems like a calculation of the cost of a spacer (or new scattershield) and a driveshaft revision, vs the cost of a shorter input shaft.
I've has good luck with the McLeod diaphragm pressure plate and disc with my setup, and has held up well going low 11s.
So it looks like the Quicktime RM-6056 is 7.150 deep. Using this would require no need for the input mods, correct? Maybe that is the way to go? Would the Quicktime use a small input Ford fork?
Thanks,
Yes, QT bell can use either fork.
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You can get a spacer that fits between the lakewood bell and the transmission to correct the spacing. I have one don't need would sell. You can find the new too.
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You can get a spacer that fits between the lakewood bell and the transmission to correct the spacing. I have one don't need would sell. You can find the new too.
Thanks but I'd prefer not to use a spacer. I have a Quicktime bell to fit the Tremec on the way.
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I'm interested if you will need tunnel enlargement and where the shifter is at.
Ron.
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How much longer is the SBF input over FE ?
Is it something that an extra block plate or two would make up the difference ?
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It’s about .600”
I shortened ,or had shortened,an old TREMEC input. My machinist had to grind it not just cut it.
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I noticed something on the Modern Driveline website about the output shaft of the TKX.
"The TKO offers a little more adjustment approx. 5/8" at the tail shaft vertically for the driveline angle. Perfect for Pro-Streeters who love to tuck the rear suspension up into their ride"
Can someone explain what this means, are they saying the output is 5/8" higher than the TKO?
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So I am going to TRY to not be too negative.
I have been interested in installing a TKO, now TKX transmission, in several of my cars over the years.
I keep coming back to this issue with the input shaft length.
These transmissions are a serious expenditure, and then to add the additional cost of $800 (+ or -) for an aftermarket bellhousing, when the Ford toploader input shaft length has basically been 6.5 inches since the beginning of time, is truly inexcusable.
That, or having to use a spacer plate and then screw around with shifter placement.
It is just stupid.
I have used a spacer in one such application and the damn thing split right through two of the holes that are close together out the side.
One would like to think, if you are in business to sell these units, they would have got the dimensions correct on the input shaft so that you can use OE bellhousings that are readily available for under $100.00 to help keep the cost down and sell more units.
After hearing about the re-design, smaller footprint, upgraded synchro's, Kevlar coated blocking rings and everything else they ought to be able to figure this one out, but obviously not and it is incredibly disappointing that it hasn't been able to happen.
Mike Howard.
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I noticed something on the Modern Driveline website about the output shaft of the TKX.
"The TKO offers a little more adjustment approx. 5/8" at the tail shaft vertically for the driveline angle. Perfect for Pro-Streeters who love to tuck the rear suspension up into their ride"
Can someone explain what this means, are they saying the output is 5/8" higher than the TKO?
I believe what they are comparing to is location from top of transmission . TKX has a trim upper portion compared to TKO so you gain 5/8 is what I assume they mean ? that's how it fits without needing the tunnel mods compared to the TKO series
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So I am going to TRY to not be too negative.
I have been interested in installing a TKO, now TKX transmission, in several of my cars over the years.
I keep coming back to this issue with the input shaft length.
These transmissions are a serious expenditure, and then to add the additional cost of $800 (+ or -) for an aftermarket bellhousing, when the Ford toploader input shaft length has basically been 6.5 inches since the beginning of time, is truly inexcusable.
That, or having to use a spacer plate and then screw around with shifter placement.
It is just stupid.
I have used a spacer in one such application and the damn thing split right through two of the holes that are close together out the side.
One would like to think, if you are in business to sell these units, they would have got the dimensions correct on the input shaft so that you can use OE bellhousings that are readily available for under $100.00 to help keep the cost down and sell more units.
After hearing about the re-design, smaller footprint, upgraded synchro's, Kevlar coated blocking rings and everything else they ought to be able to figure this one out, but obviously not and it is incredibly disappointing that it hasn't been able to happen.
Mike Howard.
I agree, the new TKX sounded like a dream come true as a replacement for my 4 speed Toploader. But if they choose not to offer a version that would be a direct replacement, other than maybe driveshaft and maybe speedo cable, it`s a no go. Not interesting in having to use adapter or spacer plates, or having to disassemble a brand new transmission to cut down the input shaft, or buy a different bellhousing. If shortening the input is such a minor deal, why doesn`t the factory offer them that way? Making a Gear Vendor sound better and better .
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I've run smallblock toploaders before on FE's without a problem . In my 67 Ranchero i changed the close ratio gearset in the original tranny for wide ratio out of a 289 Mustang and used the original 11 1/2" C6OE bellhousing. There is plantly of clearance to thepilot bushing and bearing retainer to disc. Check and measure. May be slight mods or need a very thin spacer.
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Tom, the Toploader behind the 428 in my 59 is also a small block, wide ratio unit, which fit into my early car bellhousing without issue. However, on the new TKX, it seems the "Ford" input shaft available is the much longer T5 length. Too bad they don`t make a regular Toploader length input available, even better if you could get a 10 spline, so you could keep the same clutch disc.
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I was able to get a standard toploader-length input shaft for the TKO in my street car. I imagine one will be coming out for the TKX fairly soon. The input is 26-spline as you noted, which was okay since I needed to be a new disc anyway.
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Tom, the Toploader behind the 428 in my 59 is also a small block, wide ratio unit, which fit into my early car bellhousing without issue. However, on the new TKX, it seems the "Ford" input shaft available is the much longer T5 length. Too bad they don`t make a regular Toploader length input available, even better if you could get a 10 spline, so you could keep the same clutch disc.
I think the aim for the TKX is not solely older vehicle conversions. My guess the Ford version is mainly for the Fox/SN95/SN195 crowd. The TKX does have the regular TKO length input shaft and I do believe a short input shaft is coming. Some venders are already offering them with a shortened input.
Going to a 10 spline would weaken the torque capacity of the transmission considerably.
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Tom, the Toploader behind the 428 in my 59 is also a small block, wide ratio unit, which fit into my early car bellhousing without issue. However, on the new TKX, it seems the "Ford" input shaft available is the much longer T5 length. Too bad they don`t make a regular Toploader length input available, even better if you could get a 10 spline, so you could keep the same clutch disc.
I think the aim for the TKX is not solely older vehicle conversions. My guess the Ford version is mainly for the Fox/SN95/SN195 crowd. The TKX does have the regular TKO length input shaft and I do believe a short input shaft is coming. Some venders are already offering them with a shortened input
Going to a 10 spline would weaken the torque capacity of the transmission considerably.
Thats interesting, over the years , I have broken 31 spline Toploader, and 32 spline Jerico mainshafts, cluster gears, 2nd and 3rd gears, but never a 10 spline input shaft. On my current G Force transmission, which has an 18 spline Mopar "Hemi" input, have stripped the splines out of my McLeod sintered iron disc, something that I never experienced with a 10 spline input. Even most clutch equipped Comp Eliminator and Pro Stockers use the 1 3/8" x 10 spline input shafts.
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Tom, the Toploader behind the 428 in my 59 is also a small block, wide ratio unit, which fit into my early car bellhousing without issue. However, on the new TKX, it seems the "Ford" input shaft available is the much longer T5 length. Too bad they don`t make a regular Toploader length input available, even better if you could get a 10 spline, so you could keep the same clutch disc.
I think the aim for the TKX is not solely older vehicle conversions. My guess the Ford version is mainly for the Fox/SN95/SN195 crowd. The TKX does have the regular TKO length input shaft and I do believe a short input shaft is coming. Some venders are already offering them with a shortened input
Going to a 10 spline would weaken the torque capacity of the transmission considerably.
Thats interesting, over the years , I have broken 31 spline Toploader, and 32 spline Jerico mainshafts, cluster gears, 2nd and 3rd gears, but never a 10 spline input shaft. On my current G Force transmission, which has an 18 spline Mopar "Hemi" input, have stripped the splines out of my McLeod sintered iron disc, something that I never experienced with a 10 spline input. Even most clutch equipped Comp Eliminator and Pro Stockers use the 1 3/8" x 10 spline input shafts.
When Tremec offered the TKO 500 and the TKO 600, the only difference between them (besides the different gear ratios offered) was the input shaft dimensions. The TKO 500 used the 1-1/16x10 input and was rated for 500 lb-ft of torque. The TKO 600 had the 1-1/8x26 and was rated for 600 lb-ft. That same input shaft is used in the Magnum T-56, which will hold 850-900 lb-ft when the other items inside are beefed up.
Obviously, there are differences in shaft materials, but as a general rule, the more splines the stronger the shaft, just like in axles.
I'm wondering if your clutch disc hub hadn't been heat treated correctly. Did McLeod give you any answers?
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I haven't had a TKX in my hands, but it's pretty short work to modify a TKO input.
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Brent, when I called McLeod, they said on a drag car, it was not really unusual for the splines to strip out on the finer spline clutches. And, although I tend to agree with axles, the more splines, the stronger the axle, however, axle spines are usually the same size of spline, on an input shaft, the 10 spline has much deeper, wider, and square splines, compared to a 18 or 23 spline. I imagine to maintain the larger spline dimensions, in a shaft with considerably more splines would make for a impractibly large shaft diameter. Although they said otherwise, I think what happened in my case, was that they installed a thinner dual disc hub into my Soft Lok disc. The length of the splined hub was noticeably shorter than on my previous discs, or the new disc that came when I had the clutch rebuilt recently. I suppose a heat treat issue could have also been a factor, as could 5 seasons of 6600 RPM clutch drops. Normally I need a clutch rebuild every 2 or 3 years, but when Hyatt rebuilt that clutch , he used a .380" thick disc, that just didn`t wear out. Yeah, it curled the edges of the heat shields, and the disc followed that taper, but after 5 years, the disc is still .340" in the middle.