FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: ToddK on August 18, 2015, 06:13:30 AM
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After fitting new brakes to my 63 Galaxie, I took it out for a test drive today. After a few stops to bed in the new brakes, I found myself on a nice straight stretch of road, so I decided to give the 406/462 a bit of a workout. Dropped the clutch in 1st, straight up to the rev limiter at 6900rpm, power shift to 2nd, more tire smoke, power shift to 3rd, still smoking the tires, into 4th. Backed off the throttle, looked down and noticed the oil light on. A quick check of the oil pressure gauge showed zero pressure, so I quickly shut it off and pulled over to the road side.
After doing a quick visual check to make sure no obvious problems, I checked that there was oil in the pan. After letting the car sit for a few minutes, we tried starting it. It fired right up, but no pressure, so shut off again. I had the car towed back to my workshop, where we pulled the distributor to check the pump drive shaft. It looked intact, no obvious problems. We tried to turn the drive shaft with a 1/4" socket, but couldn't a small enough socket down onto the shaft.
Tomorrow, I plan to go back to my workshop with my oil pump priming tool, and a small oil pressure gauge I use for priming. At this stage it looks like I may have to drop the sump, if not pull the whole engine.
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You could have lost the pump pickup, or broke the pump shaft when you got on it. I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that the motor needs to come out yet; even if you did some damage you might be able to pull the pan and just replace the bearings. It is amazing what the engines will take before they need a complete refurb...
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X2 to that. My first 390, new build, had 100 psi oil pressure at idle. Builder said it would come down as it broke in. During the 30 mile trip home, middle of nowhere, the pressure dropped to 30. This was before the days of cell phones,so I drove it to the first station and called the builder to ask if that seemed right. I got, no, don't touch it, I'm on the way. After inspection, we found a press in galley plug had been pushed out. The bearings were replaced, even though they still looked ok. That engine is still running today. Also the same builder fired up his Shelby 482 on the run stand after some upgrades, brought it up to temp to check the lash. Then he checked the oil. Couldn't see it on the dipstick, because he forgot to add it. Oops :o. There was no damage on that one at all, it still runs today. I'm hoping your good as well.
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n/m
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Then he checked ipstick, because he forgot to add it. Oops :o. There was no damage on that one at all, it still runs today. I'm hoping your good as well.
Me too! Reminds me of a true story about former F/C race Gene Snow. In those days, most racers had a pickup crew (free labor!) of guys willing to help during rounds. On fire up, he noticed a fluctuating oil pressure gauge, not unusual in a blown nitro 426 Hemi. Well, near the finish line the pressure was zero! He peddled it through the lights and still won. On teardown, no oil! Seems his crack helpers failed to add oil!
This is a true story as Amalie Oil Co., on hearing the news, actually ran a print ad in National Dragster and other rags of the era promoting how well their 70W nitro oil worked even with only film! Here's another guy who remembers that ad as well:
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/did-i-just-kill-my-new-engine.783774/page-5
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Does your 406 have a small hole at the oil filter mount area of the block that is normally covered by the gasket? My '63 427 block has this hole and I believe most early blocks do. It goes completely threw the block. My guess is it could have blown threw the gasket at this hole. I had this happen to me years ago. We tapped the hole and put a set screw in it. If the gasket blows out the oil bypasses back into the oil pan. I have no idea why Ford put that hole there.
Also could have blown out the oil pump gasket or broke the pump casting.
I'd bet though you blew out the gasket at the oil filter mount.
Also, cut open your filter and look for bearing material. You may have gotten lucky and not hurt it.
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Good to know about the hole in the block at the oil filter mount area. If I get resistance from the oil pump when I prime it, that will be my next area to check.
I may be able to get away with just raising the engine a bit to remove the oil pan if I have to. If I go that far, I will check a few of the bearings too. I had planned on dropping the oil filter and cutting it open to check for damage.
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I managed to get to my workshop today and start the problem solving. First, I put the oil pump priming tool on the pump drive shaft and found I could turn the shaft by hand, but with some resistance. I connected my small oil pressure gauge to the oil filter mount and used a drill to turn the oil pump. This showed zero pressure. So next I removed the oil filter mount to see if the hole in the block was present and causing the problem. My 406 block does have this hole, but as you can see from the photo below, the gasket was still intact.
(http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp89/toddkeen/IMG_0061.jpg) (http://s400.photobucket.com/user/toddkeen/media/IMG_0061.jpg.html)
I cut open the oil filter and was relieved to see it was relatively clean.
So, at this stage, my best guess is the oil pump pickup has somehow come loose. Tomorrow, I will attempt to raise the engine enough to allow removal of the oil pan. Hopefully that will reveal the problem. With the pan off, I also plan to inspect some of the bearings. The oil pump is a standard volume Mellings from POP. Is it common for these to crack or fail? I have had a 385 series oil pump fail on me, but have not heard of FE pumps failing.
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I've never had an FE oil pump fail, but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen. If you had some resistance when you are turning it, but it didn't drag the drill motor way down like it was pumping, I'm guessing the pickup came loose. Pull the pan and you will find the problem...
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I had the bypass spring fail inside the pump of my bracket race 428 once, I had zero oil pressure at low rpms but did have maybe 5 psi when the motor was revved up a little. I wasn't sure at first if maybe the gauge had failed, tried a different gauge, same result. Most of the oil was just bypassing, but some was getting to the motor. Replaced the oil pump and all was fine. I mention it because there was nothing to see externally, no obvious visual failure. My machinist correctly guessed the problem, he said he has seen it a few times before.
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Or the pickup could have cracked and is sucking air or sitting in the pan. That's why the better ones have strap bracing on them. It's also why all the bolts related to the pump and pickup should be safety wired.
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We managed to get the oil pan off with the engine still in the car, and happy to report we found the problem. The oil pickup bolts had come loose at the pump body, and the pump was sucking air. Everything else looked in good condition.
Not sure exactly why the bolts had come loose. I put this engine together, so only myself to blame. They are ARP bolts, and I am pretty sure I torqued them to spec. I may replace the bolts with some with a bigger head so I can drill and lock wire them. Or should I just reuse the ARP's but use loctite?
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That must be a huge relief that it was just the loose pickup and no visible damage was done.
Makes you wonder why it was loose though.
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We managed to get the oil pan off with the engine still in the car, and happy to report we found the problem. The oil pickup bolts had come loose at the pump body, and the pump was sucking air. Everything else looked in good condition.
Not sure exactly why the bolts had come loose. I put this engine together, so only myself to blame. They are ARP bolts, and I am pretty sure I torqued them to spec. I may replace the bolts with some with a bigger head so I can drill and lock wire them. Or should I just reuse the ARP's but use loctite?
Have any regular bolts laying around? I use "non-fancy" bolts, with lock washers and blue Loctite.
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Red Loc-tite here...
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I feel like I'm in a Loctite bidding war.....anybody using green? ;)
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We have usd ARP with red loctite for pickup tube and pump to block. The pump cover plate I like to use allen bolts and drill for lock wire. The standard style bolts with lock washers and blue loctite should work fine also. Just be sure with the loctite that the threads are nice and clean and dry before applying. ;)
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Red Loctite it shall be.
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Glad you found the problem and it was a simple one!
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May want to pop a couple bearing caps just to ease your mind.
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Red Loc-tite here...
X2...If yer gonna use the stuff..use the strongest stuff available.
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I do know that red tastes better than blue....
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I do know that red tastes better than blue....
I don't think I want to know how you know that. :P
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Although the filter was clean the bearings can be
damaged.Without pick up the pump could not
pump any oil with metal shavings in to the filter
so check atleast the bearing most downstream
from the pump
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The red does taste better, but it gives me the $hits ;D
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I feel like I'm in a Loctite bidding war.....anybody using green? ;)
The green is badass. Heat won't touch that stuff. You need explosives! :)
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The red does taste better, but it gives me the $hits ;D
I didn't know we had Loctite drinkers here, I thought we were limited to engine BraKleen inhalers and silicone sniffers. This is truly an equal opportunity forum ;D
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I will pull the 4 and 8 rod caps and check the bearings before I put things back together.
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I didn't know we had Loctite drinkers here, I thought we were limited to engine BraKleen inhalers and silicone sniffers. This is truly an equal opportunity forum ;D
You forgot the all important Cam2, Supreme, AV gas, or other fuels and flammable liquids. ;)
Personally, I like a little anti-seize on my toast.....
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Hey, let's not forget the queen of all inhalable solvents, lacquer thinner! Gonna take you higher...higher! LOL
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(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e363/cjshaker/airplane-sniffing-glue.jpg) (http://s43.photobucket.com/user/cjshaker/media/airplane-sniffing-glue.jpg.html)
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I'm gone for a while and this place turned into a bunch of shop supply addicts? Just kidding ;D I can't speak for the taste of loctite, but there is something about the smell when you break loctited bolts loose. I will say this - truck antifreeze, brake cleaner, diesel, used motor oil and used 80-90 are NOT pleasing to my taste buds or eyeballs. We used to have some stuff called clean and prime, it was the best customer repellent ever. Later, Travis.
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Motorcycle folks just love to use red on the brake disc and pulley/sprocket bolts, going into aluminum hubs- if you don't use a little heat, it's pretty common for the threads to come out of the hub instead of the loctite breaking loose...
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Have any regular bolts laying around? I use "non-fancy" bolts, with lock washers and blue Loctite.
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They're my favorite brand of bolts too!
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Just to finish off this thread, today we got the engine all bolted back together, including the oil pick up with red Loctite on the bolts. Engine fired back up with good oil pressure and no strange sounds. Hopefully I got away with this one and all is good again. Now back to bedding in the new brakes.
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You should of used blue loctite. ;)
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Todd, glad to hear you got it back together with no damage. A few months back, I started up the 352 in my 63 Gal and the oil light wouldn't go out. I didn't hear any abnormal engine noise, so let it idle a minute or two. Still no bad noises, so I revved her a little and saw the oil light flicker. I figured it must be the sender, and I didnt have a separate gage to check it. So I shut it off and ordered a new sender from RockAuto. Got the sender, installed it and presto! Oil light goes out. I still can't believe how easy that one was...
Bruce
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If all car problems were only that easily fixed, Bruce.