FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: blykins on November 05, 2019, 08:10:37 AM
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In response to my 352 project thread in the Members' Projects portion of the forum:
I'll be straight up honest. I'm more excited about this stupid 352 than any engine I've played with in the past several months LOL.
It's a '66 352 out of a '66 pickup. I have no clue on what shape it's in, if it's hurt, if it's pristine, no idea. The guy I bought it from said it was running a few months ago, powering his pickup truck before he threw a 390 in it.
With all of that in mind, this is gonna be one of the biggest variable "guess the horsepower" games I've had. It's gonna be a blast. Most of the time I have a really good idea on what an engine will do, because I've had my hands on the parts, had previous experience with the combo, all parts are new, etc. This time, I'm gonna throw my hands in the air and just see what happens.
Here's how it sits right now:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48991100452_ce60f50b67_c.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48990353653_a9aaf6f232_c.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48990905076_0fa2816082_c.jpg)
I'm gonna put it on the engine stand this Friday, put some plugs in it, put a new filter on it, throw some oil in it, prime the pump, bolt the water pump on, and throw a balancer bolt in it. Other than that, it's gonna go on the dyno next week (me and Ross are gonna do a 4-engine flog session starting Thursday) and it's gonna have a rough life for a few hours.
If the general health of the engine is ok, I'm gonna put a couple licks on it and then I'm gonna throw a Blue Thunder intake on it with a 650 Holley and see what it does. That's the only used intake in my shop right now, next to a Sidewinder, and I'm not buying another intake just to play.
So, we'll do this game in two steps....
First step is a horsepower guess for the engine bone stock, as it sits. Corrected horsepower. Closest without going over gets some schwag....decals, a shirt, or something. You can make a guess for this one by itself, just make a note your guess.
Second step is a horsepower guess if the engine makes it and I get the intake/carb swapped without accidentally shoving 53 years of sludge down in the engine. Corrected horsepower. Closest without going over gets some schwag, decals, a shirt, or something. You can make a guess for this one by itself, just make a note in your guess.
I tell ya what, we will add something a little more interesting: if anyone guesses both iterations to the exact number, they will get a free set of my non-adjustable roller rocker arms.
Happy guessing and keep your fingers crossed that the thing stays together.
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As an aside, the exhaust manifolds will be coming off. Dyno headers only, so use that in your guess. We will also be driving the water pump with a remote electric motor, so it won't be turning any accessories. I will also be dynoing without the hoss-cat air cleaner. The tune will be optimized for air fuel and timing.
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I anticipate we will make a total of 2430 hp during my two day visit!
That being said, of that, this baby will have 165 on run one, 195 on the second :)
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174 HP First run
209 HP Second run
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I'll guess in bone stock trim 203hp. With the BT and 650 i'll say 226hp.
I took a '66 352 4 barrel engine that was sitting under a tractor trailer for who knows how long and put it into a '86 F-150. Points, plugs and a 650 holley. Let's just say it wont spin the 235 tires on the long box F-150 with 3.55 gears. She's a slug, Big time! I've always had a soft spot for the 352, I'll be watching this one closely.
Fred
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First run 181 HP
Second run 225 HP
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First Run 175 HP
Second Run 195 HP
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First run 205 hp
2nd run 230 hp
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This would would be a great test for all those "I have a 352 or 360" questions. At your expense of course, I would like to see what a Performer vs RPM intake and headers do for it. Then a few cam swaps. Can you have the results by Friday?
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235 1st run 255 second time
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246 hp first run after tweaking, and 271 hp for BT runs. if it is a true 80K engine, if it is 180K, all bets are off...... Joe-JDC
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The guts of that distributor are such a wildcard.
216 then 235.
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For the sake of eliminating variables, I'll probably throw a new distributor in it.
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201 stock
242 second dyno
I’m curious to know how much HP it had new in 66
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201 stock
242 second dyno
I’m curious to know how much HP it had new in 66
208 I think.
Maybe someone can verify, but I think the cam was 270/270 advertised (probably like 195 @ .050"), 113/113, .401" lift.
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stock 194
BT 219
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Yep, 208 was the factory rating. I think they were 184@.050, and .408 lift. I'll bet Werb has all that info. I think if it isn't too worn out, the four barrel will add 30+ hp. Done at 3800 on the 2V, 4600 my guess for the 4V.
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I'll stick with my 218. The 4 bbl added 25 hp in 64, but that also came with duals. So I'll add 15 for 233 with the intake swap.
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Stock Run- 228 HP
Intake/Carb Swap-239 HP
It would be nice to get lucky and get a set of those rockers!
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I'll say198 now and 210 after
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189 stock
204 with intake/carb
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My eyes bulged out when I read the of the rocker prize as it may be time to move away from my Ersons. Wonder what the odds are of nailing that?
198/233
JB
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204/231
Such a fun thing to do. I love seeing real world testing.
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196/213
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Just to let everyone know, I'll be stabbing an MSD distributor in to eliminate any chances of issues. I'll recurve it, have it all in by 2500 or so. Should not affect any guesses so far.
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204/231
Such a fun thing to do. I love seeing real world testing.
Hit the road pal, My guess was at 205 and 230. :)
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I'm in for 194 and 217. Let the hammer fly!
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first i will say 227 after 254
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I will go low, 188/208
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I'll shoot low, price-is-right style, to try and scoop up the W.
162HP as-is
190 w/ intake & carb
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204/231
Such a fun thing to do. I love seeing real world testing.
Hit the road pal, My guess was at 205 and 230. :)
Honestly didn't see that!
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Well since your also from Iowa , you get a pass.
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Guys, I found something that may affect your guesses and you can change your minds up until next Thursday.
One cylinder head was a C6AE-R and the other one was a C8AE-H....
Block is a C6ME-A. I don't that doesn't affect anything, but just documenting it. I put the engine on an engine stand today. I'm still not 100% on my back and didn't feel like trying to flip an engine back over, so I looked briefly for crank cast numbers and didn't find any, so I put a screwdriver down the plug hole and measured the stroke. It's indeed 3.5".
The pan only had a hand full of bolts in it, so I went ahead and dropped it. Glad I did, because the pickup bolts were loose. The previous owner had swapped pans and he didn't tighten the pickup bolts. I also quickly put a socket on some rod bolts and didn't find any loose ones.
Oil in the filter looked clean. It had a new rotor, carb looks pretty new. Plugs looked really good. Rolling it over by hand, it "hissed" at me with the plugs in and when I filled it with new oil and primed the pump, the pump fought back against me pretty good.
Under the valve covers was a different story......all sludged up as you would expect, but no broken rocker arms, springs, or bent pushrods.
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(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49033898757_b8589ae7fe_z.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49033898732_db27c69ced_z.jpg)
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208 before
228 after
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167
199
The timing set will be a crap shoot. Hopefully the plastic gear has been upgraded.
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I bolted a pump block off plate on and checked the timing set out. The factory set has been replaced but there is a good bit of slack.
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I am betting that the mileage is not 80K, but 180K from the looks of things and head swaps. I would not waste any time or money on those heads, but go directly to rebuilding short block after the dyno session, and add the TFS heads and intake, etc. Joe-JDC
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Ugly but it will run, might check pushrod length tho. At least in the 2 or 3 junkers I did some work on they where too long. Arguably they where running that way for years but I still corrected it.
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I bolted a pump block off plate on and checked the timing set out. The factory set has been replaced but there is a good bit of slack.
Excellent. That will move the power band up just a tick. BTW, Good luck in getting those exhaust manifolds off. Just C clamp or vise grip the top header bolts.
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164
184
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187 before, 215 after
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155 before, 191 after
Only folks like us see beauty in a lump like that!
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137 / 159
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220 before, 238 w/ by intake
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263/320
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I looked up the cam for that truck engine. It appears they used 2 cams, 65/66 & 67. @ .050, the timing is In 19/25, .406 lift and set 112 CL, Ex 27/21, .406 lift and 114 CL, both 186 duration.
'67 cam is, In, 17/29, .432 lift, 192 Dur, 113 CL, Ex, 33/12, .435 lift, 199 Dur, 111 CL
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I looked up the cam for that truck engine. It appears they used 2 cams, 65/66 & 67. @ .050, the timing is In 19/25, .406 lift and set 112 CL, Ex 27/21, .406 lift and 114 CL, both 186 duration.
'67 cam is, In, 17/29, .432 lift, 192 Dur, 113 CL, Ex, 33/12, .435 lift, 199 Dur, 111 CL
Both barn burners LOL
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We've gotta go dyno 2 engines again tomorrow. Makes for a long day. I may run out of energy mid-post.
Ross put his 461 on the pump first and we were really impressed with the power that it made. I'm sure he will post his own write-up later on as well. After lunch, we stuck the 352 on the dyno and went to work.
This thing was a complete variable in what we should expect. I had no clue if the bearings were worn out, if the pistons were worn out, rings were gone, etc. I gave it a quick once-over when it was on the stand, but that was about it. Since we had Ross' engine on the dyno first, it was an easy job to throw the 352 on. I threw the MSD in, bolted the headers on (with bolts and vice-grips), hooked the fuel line up, and away we went.
Keep in mind that I had put fresh plugs in, new wires, new oil/filter, and had primed the pump.
The thing fired IMMEDIATELY and settled down to a nice idle. I set the timing at 36 degrees.
To be honest, I don't remember what the first pull brought us, but it was something low....I'm thinking 150-160 hp.
It was lean, so I richened the carb up and dialed in 42 degrees of timing. We were rewarded with 208 hp.
So for those playing the guessing game, with headers, in stock 2 bbl form, with carb and timing adjusted, it made 208 hp. Surprised me to death.
We weren't done yet, so we popped off the 2100 carb and bolted on a Holley 500 cfm 2-bbl. With the timing still at 42, the Holley carb made us 234 hp.
Not much else to try, we got to work changing the intake manifold. Ross and I had the old intake off, gasket surfaces cleaned, new intake prepped, and ready to fire in just under an hour. With the Blue Thunder intake, a Holley 650 carb, and timing still at 42°, we were rewarded with 264 hp at a whopping 4250 rpm. Torque was at 344 lb-ft.
So, quick recap:
352 as is, with headers, timing/fuel optimized - 208 hp
352, with headers, BT intake, 650 carb, - 264 hp.
What a blast and a sweet little engine. Oil pressure went up to 65 psi through the pull. No abnormal noises and not even any blow-by when I pulled the oil filler cap and held my hand over it.
It was nasty dirty inside though, as I figured it would be. I really hate to swap any parts into it with it as dirty as it is. The thought of sticking a new cam and new lifters in a filthy engine just kinda gives me an icky feeling. I'll think over it some more.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49066699691_5eb315271a_z.jpg)
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Love the header clamps, are they factory. That is amazing how much power that picked up.
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Nice,
So I wasn’t too far off on the first pull ???
I’m shocked the intake/carb pulled that much gain on a stockish engine... :o
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Pull the heads & pressure wash them. You'll want to replace the stem seals and use some thin shim gaskets anyhow. Clean the valley the best you can and the only other place that will be crusty, (probably the worst of all) will be behind the timing cover. easy to clean with the impending cam change. Add a quart of Rislone and you're good to go. Also, I always add some safety wire tethers to my exhaust vice-grips. You don't want to lose one going down the road.
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A swap to a 500 2bbl made 26 hp, impressiv :o.
A well worn engine made exactly the factory hp
interesting to know does it still have factory valve
seat or have it got a valvejob during its life?
Since my butometer have indicated a noticable
powergain with only a good three angle valvejob
on a othervice stock engine
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Probably along day but Im sure you guys had a good time. When its fun it isnt really work.
Pretty nice jump, its like a day 2 pickup from 1966.
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Nice! I'd merely run some Rislone Engine Treatment through it, drain it and refill.....until you want the entire engine stripped down.
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I don't know why I like this so much. Maybe its a nice reminder that it doesn't have to be pretty to work well.
Only 4hp off on my first guess but way off on the second, but 56hp from an intake and carb! Holy crap I would have never believed that. And quite the pick up with the Holley 2bbl, which was 3hp from my high number. Those extra two barrels and intake make quite a difference.
I can tell you this, the factory 2bbl setup on my F100 is on borrowed time!
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It's cool to see actual numbers and an improvement from your typical bolt on stuff which is probably all you could afford when you were 18 (sometimes I still can barely afford it!) and working in the driveway.
It's also impressive that it's still making "good" power considering it probably didn't have stellar treatment over the years.
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So the data I have from the two 2-bbl carbs fits in nicely with the discussion that we were having on Sandhauler's thread about carburetor sizes.
Obviously not a race engine by any means, very low rpm, just a nice sweetheart of a street engine.
The Autolite 2100 averaged 195.50 hp and 275.85 lb-ft from 3000-4500.
The Holley 500 averaged 205.91 hp and 288.39 lb-ft from 3000-4500.
That's an incredible increase in both peaks and averages. Air fuel ratios between the two carburetors in tuned form were basically exactly the same throughout the pulls.
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I don't know why I like this so much. Maybe its a nice reminder that it doesn't have to be pretty to work well.
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Strange isn’t it - a grimy ol 352 gets all the attention, complete with chain marks on the valve cover...
What is the CR on these, I know a truck 360 is dismal, but not sure about a 352...
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I don't know why I like this so much. Maybe its a nice reminder that it doesn't have to be pretty to work well.
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Strange isn’t it - a grimy ol 352 gets all the attention, complete with chain marks on the valve cover...
What is the CR on these, I know a truck 360 is dismal, but not sure about a 352...
8.9:1......
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https://www.instagram.com/p/B47fVuznvzi/
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Something that you have to remember, when comparing 2 bbl Vs 4 bbl's, is that the 2 bbl, is rated at 3.0 inches and 4 bbl, at 1.5 inches. When you factor that in, the 500 cfm 2 bbl, carb, only flows 353 cfm.
I'm pleasantly surprised that, that old, well used, work horse, does so well :)
I'm looking forward to what you do with this engine.
Added:
Has anyone done any actual flow tests on the 500 cfm 2 bbl's? They have the same venturi & throttle bores of the 750 carbs. 1/2 that flow, is 375 cfm.
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Very well done,and interesting, makes me wonder about the 352 I have in my front yard,lol
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Wow, well, I missed this one!
Funny about the heads, a 390 of mine had the same setup - one c6ae-r head, the other c8ae-h head. Maybe they were done in the same shop.
Per my specs the TRUCK 352 had 8.4 CR, with .056 deck. I don't know what's different vs the car.
Given that, the torque is what's amazing.
If I run the Gonkulator with an electric water pump, here's what it said, of course these aren't predictions any more doggone it:
Stock 2bbl
Torq 308 at 2400
Powr 208 at 4000
500 Holley 2bbl
Torq 311 at 2600
Powr 232 at 4400
BT intake and 650dp Holley
Torq 323 at 2800 (torq seems low vs 344 dyno?)
Powr 267 at 4800 (peak seems high vs 4250 dyno?)
Brent, do you have the other peak Torq and peak RPM's for TQ and HP?
Just for comparison.
Also, are you going to tear that thing down?
I'd be curious how it comes out in there - is it already 30-over, deck clearance, gasket thickness, etc, which cam was in it?
My guess is indeed it should have the 186-186 .401 .401 lift csm.
The 67-up 192-199 cam usually adds about 10hp on a 390-4v or 410-4v but on this little dog it doesn't seem to care.
EXCELLENT dyno of an old factory dog. We had one of these in our old "up at the woods" truck.
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You need to check the dyno results page and also the project thread I have in the projects section of the forum.
I pulled the heads off yesterday. The bores are standard, with about .005" of ridge. Pistons are .050" in the hole plus shim gasket.
The heads are both C6's, there was just so much sludge that it looked like an 8 before LOL
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Werby, I was in the room with that screaming race motor LOL (along with the two of my we spun, you'll see those on the dyno page too)
I would suspect the difference in the 352's RPM peak was due to valve float. Not sure it would have made much more power, but the springs were certainly a mechanical rev limiter :)