Block prep, oiling mods...

[cjshaker]

I'll go on the advice of the strength issue...although that doesn't make sense to me either, but I'll trust the experience of others here.
Thanks for all the input.

Experience is right. There have been numerous experiences over the last 20 years or so, by forum members where the block failed in that area, although to be fair, they were mostly drag cars. We've all seen the pictures of blocks that came apart in that area. The FE started out as a meak 332 destined for family transportation and nothing more. Ford was completely out of the performance thing in those days. Then things changed and the FE was the best platform to use for their newly developed performance program. They improved on a lot of areas over the years, but that is one area that did not change until aftermarket blocks addressed the area.

[George vega]

I'm in the process of building a 390 also and I followed Brent's and Jay's advice on this topic.

[My427stang]

So I agree that for making power, an HV oil pump is not needed.  I also agree that I do not like to touch the main galleys and I don't do a lot of oil mods other than a little blending.

However, I like HV pumps, a lot, and honestly, would likely pick an HV pump with a standard spring first, next would be an HV pump as delivered, and third would be standard pump.  Remember, the taller HV gears will drive up idle oil pressure.  I know what you see on the gauge at idle when hot, even if it's low, isn't dangerous, but I like to see it on the gauge just the same.  It just makes me feel better to see decent oil pressure at idle, especially when clearances are a little higher for a healthy one.

The relief spring determines how much oil goes up top at RPM, not the gears.   Often people forget that "pressure is the measurement of resistance to flow" so, if you see 65 PSI, regardless of the pump design, the same amount of oil is being pushed to the bearings.  The difference is how much is dumped by the relief, which in theory could lead to foaming, etc, but really I think a good pan with enough volume and capacity is the primary focus,  especially for a front sump FE.  Of course an HV has a little more spring than a standard pump and a little less than an HP, so it is pumping more up top, but then I prefer to have clean returns and then I just let it flow.

I also very sparingly use rocker arm restriction too.  I have seen older FEs with loose tolerances smoke the outer rockers when they dump oil early.  The answer for that is, don't run loose clearances, however, it's impossible not to with needle bearing rockers, so I like to make sure I have more than enough oil in the rocker shaft.  Just a technique, and mine are primarily street builds, and not pushrod oiling, but with that and valve spring cooling, I like to let it flow.

[Ford428CJ]

I'll 3rd that! No need to drill out oil passages at all. Waste of time and money doing so. Really not needed....

I'm like Ross when it comes to HV oil pumps. I've always have run them in my FE's and see a lot of time on them.

[jayb]

I wish I understood the aversion some folks have to high volume oil pumps.  I always use them.  I like to see a lot of oil pressure at idle, and I like the safety factor that they offer in case of some kind of engine failure.  For example, let's say you inadvertently break a rocker shaft, spin a rod bearing, or something like that.  You suddenly have a big internal oil leak, which could rob oil from the rest of the engine.  A high volume pump will help you compensate for that and keep the rest of the engine in good shape. 

And as far as I'm concerned, an HV pump sucking the pan dry is a myth, even with a stock oil pan.  Not to say that a higher capacity oil pan isn't a good investment, because it is, but I've run a stock pan on my 428CJ since 1978, along with an HV pump, and never had an issue.  Quite a while back, Dave Shoe on the other forum challenged me to watch my oil pressure gauge in my Mach 1 during a drag strip pass, when I had the 428CJ installed.  He said I would see fluctuating or decreasing oil pressure at the end of the run.  He was wrong, it was steady at 80 psi the whole way.  The only oil mods to that engine were 70 Holley jets in the oil passages in the heads, and of course the factory recommended 6 quarts.

Some day I'm going to do a back to back dyno test of a standard oil pump vs. a high volume pump, just to see the difference in power.  I'll bet it will be less than a 2 HP difference. 

I will continue to use and recommend HV oil pumps.

[blykins]

Somebody, somewhere, either here or the other forum tested a standard volume against the high volume.  8 hp is sticking in my head for some reason.   I could be wrong. 

I don't have an aversion against high volume pumps, I just don't think they're necessary, like ultra-high oil pressure. 

[scott foxwell]

Some day I'm going to do a back to back dyno test of a standard oil pump vs. a high volume pump, just to see the difference in power.  I'll bet it will be less than a 2 HP difference. 

I will continue to use and recommend HV oil pumps.

ON BB Chev, difference between std volume and high volume is about 7hp. I've heard gearotor pumps use less power.
I won't use a stock windage tray. IMO all they do is reflect oil back on the crank which causes more windage issues and they prevent oil from getting back in the pan. A screen is a much better deal. The Y block is not the best design when it comes to windage and oil control.

[My427stang]

If someone doesn't like or want the extra oil pressure/flow at RPM, put a standard spring in it.  I like the idle pressure, mostly because it makes me feel good when I look down at a hot street motor. 

It'd be interesting to see not only the HP difference between an HV and a standard pump, but the difference between a STD and HV pump both with the same spring/max pressure.  Is the power to drive the pump the same at any given relief pressure or does gear size matter? 

As far as the stock windage tray, on the last one I did, I drilled a series of holes along the "downward" side of the crank, not sure if it mattered, but didn't take long and the idea was that the holes will strip some oil

[jimeast]

Didn't Barry test the HV vs standard pump?  If I recall he had a few extra HP with the standard pump.

***EDIT*** In Barry's Book, he mentions for his personal race engines he uses the standard pump to squeeze a few extra hp, but for customer engines he uses the HV pump.

I wish I understood the aversion some folks have to high volume oil pumps.  I always use them.  I like to see a lot of oil pressure at idle, and I like the safety factor that they offer in case of some kind of engine failure.  For example, let's say you inadvertently break a rocker shaft, spin a rod bearing, or something like that.  You suddenly have a big internal oil leak, which could rob oil from the rest of the engine.  A high volume pump will help you compensate for that and keep the rest of the engine in good shape. 

And as far as I'm concerned, an HV pump sucking the pan dry is a myth, even with a stock oil pan.  Not to say that a higher capacity oil pan isn't a good investment, because it is, but I've run a stock pan on my 428CJ since 1978, along with an HV pump, and never had an issue.  Quite a while back, Dave Shoe on the other forum challenged me to watch my oil pressure gauge in my Mach 1 during a drag strip pass, when I had the 428CJ installed.  He said I would see fluctuating or decreasing oil pressure at the end of the run.  He was wrong, it was steady at 80 psi the whole way.  The only oil mods to that engine were 70 Holley jets in the oil passages in the heads, and of course the factory recommended 6 quarts.

Some day I'm going to do a back to back dyno test of a standard oil pump vs. a high volume pump, just to see the difference in power.  I'll bet it will be less than a 2 HP difference. 

I will continue to use and recommend HV oil pumps.

[fekbmax]

Has anyone here had any experience with the titan pumps for FE's ?

[C6AE]

Years ago the factory racing Harley's came with a 1/4 speed oil pump, and the requisite increase in horsepower. They were fine if you didn't let them idle, or operate them at slower rpm, i.e., they were for racing. For street use they were a disaster. They would hammer the rods out in a few days, and these were roller bearing engines.
 
The FT motors used the HV pump for the same reasons, high loads at low rpms, exactly what a "hot" street motor has to deal with. I like the HV pumps, you can use increased clearances and high compression at engine speeds dictated by traffic conditions.
The std. oil pump was designed around fairly tight clearances, and worked fine with those.  When I worked at the Ford dealer I can remember FE's not having enough pressure at idle to put the oil light out at idle!  Always excessive clearance. The factory cam bearing oil hole position has a bit to do with oil pressure. As the hole moves away from 6:00 position the oil clearance is increased, with a corresponding loss in pressure.

[chris401]

And as far as I'm concerned, an HV pump sucking the pan dry is a myth, even with a stock oil pan.  Not to say that a higher capacity oil pan isn't a good investment, because it is, but I've run a stock pan on my 428CJ since 1978, along with an HV pump, and never had an issue.  Quite a while back, Dave Shoe on the other forum challenged me to watch my oil pressure gauge in my Mach 1 during a drag strip pass, when I had the 428CJ installed.  He said I would see fluctuating or decreasing oil pressure at the end of the run.  He was wrong, it was steady at 80 psi the whole way.  The only oil mods to that engine were 70 Holley jets in the oil passages in the heads, and of course the factory recommended 6 quarts.
I will continue to use and recommend HV oil pumps.

As for sucking air with stock pan with only 5 qts of oil, that is not a myth. I ran a 390 at 6200 rpm down the interstate for the 5 minutes it lasted. Lost oil pressure till I let off. Oil pressure was weak but still had oil. Engine was together and running till I tried to idle home on the shoulder. However Ford designed the solid lifter 390/C3AE-C heads is how I left it except the HV pump. With Thunderbird valve covers there were no breathers to witness if they filled up or not. This engine had almost a year on it as a 17 year old's daily driver.

[preaction]

Is it possible that a HV pump could over time  have an eroding effect on bearing material with all of the heat, pressure, volume and increased velocity of the oil over a relatively soft bearing material ?

[Ranch]

A high Volume Pump can suck a 5qt sump dry, I know. But only if the drain backs in the heads are restricted or you are leaking by somewhere real bad.  That is why first rule when installing a HV pump is to add an extra qt. of oil. 
Remember Pumps make flow, Restriction makes pressure, and your oil will seek the path of least resistance.
Say you have two oil pumps HV. & STD. both have the same pressure relief (65#), if the engine they are mounted on have tight clearances and drain back well, both engines will have the same pressure and will receive the same volume thru the system.  Now say you have a leak that the std. pump just can’t keep up with (sloppy rockers), pressure will drop but the hv. pump may overcome the leak  and still maintain pressure thru the system and to areas that need the oil. Me, I like that added insurance.
With all those hot spots that oil is trying to help cool I don’t think the pump is generating more than 220 deg.  No your bearings aren’t getting any more oil flow or pressure that would erode them…JMO

[scott foxwell]

There seems to be a lot of guessing here on what pump to use. Any pump is going to keep pumping till it runs out of oil. If you get the oil back in the pan at a rate equal to what's going out of the pan, it will never run dry. We only have so much control over that (return rate). The key is making sure that you don't exceed that return rate. Bearing clearances (including cam bearings), lifter to bore clearances, rocker clearances and all the combined "leaks" in the engine are going to determine the demand on the pump. The more demand there is on the pump, the more volume you need in order to maintain a certain amount of pressure. As long as the oil is getting back in the pan at the same rate it's being removed, you'll never pump the pan dry, regardless of the volume of the pump. Adding a quart of oil is a bandaid at best. It only prolongs the inevitable and causes other windage issues that can cost a lot of power...if that's a concern. If the oil system is working properly it shouldn't matter if you have two, three or six quarts of oil in the pan (other than because of dynamic issues).