windage tray

[BigBlueIron]

Is a windage tray worth the effort/cost on basic street engine that would only see 5000rpm once in a blue moon? 390 2wd truck pan. 

Or should one be used on basically everything with maybe the exception of a deeper 4x4 or FT bread pan.

[blykins]

No.

[Falcon67]

If I build an engine, it gets a tray. 

[blykins]

Chris, a skirted block is different from a non-skirted block.  I've never seen any dyno advantage of a windage tray on an FE.  The only time I've used them in the past is doing the "CJ oil capacity mod" or if I'm using an Aviaid Cobra pan that has one incorporated into it.  Otherwise, it's not worth the hassle.

[My427stang]

I tend to run them too, but I doubt the stock Ford pan lid does a lot as it was designed more to allow them to run an extra quart in the CJ pan.

With those, I drill a series of holes on each side, thinking it will strip a little, no idea if it does.  However, the Canton screen piece does look like it might help.  I have them in all of my own

However, you also have to shape it to fit the dipstick, and shape the return for the mains, so worth it?  depends if you really want it LOL  Probably more for max effort and/or cool points. 

[pbf777]

......... a skirted block is different from a non-skirted block.

     How?  Well. I suppose the pan rail is lower, meaning a sum of the oil flying within the crankcase engages the cast vertical skirting vs. the otherwise often tin pan, this also providing a horizontal ledge closer to the oil supply volume, but the overall depth and distance the oil may be from the crankshaft doesn't automatically differ, but what ever value (?) one might atribite to this certainly leaves an awful lot of area otherwise uneffected.             

  I've never seen any dyno advantage of a windage tray on an FE.  ...................  Otherwise, it's not worth the hassle.

     I believe the first and foremost intention is for oil control and quality for engine survivability, with dyno numbers being a secondary benefit, one result not always indicative of the other.           

     Scott.

[blykins]

......... a skirted block is different from a non-skirted block.

     How?  Well. I suppose the pan rail is lower, meaning a sum of the oil flying within the crankcase engages the cast vertical skirting vs. the otherwise often tin pan, this also providing a horizontal ledge closer to the oil supply volume, but the overall depth and distance the oil may be from the crankshaft doesn't automatically differ, but what ever value (?) one might atribite to this certainly leaves an awful lot of area otherwise uneffected.             

  I've never seen any dyno advantage of a windage tray on an FE.  ...................  Otherwise, it's not worth the hassle.

     I believe the first and foremost intention is for oil control and quality for engine survivability, with dyno numbers being a secondary benefit, one result not always indicative of the other.           

     Scott.

I usually try to base things on experience using them or not using them.   In this case, I've got lots of experience not using them.

Notice that I didn't say "dyno numbers", I said dyno advantage.  That advantage could mean horsepower gains/losses, but it could also mean an indication of oil control gain/loss by watching the numbers as well. 

I've never seen a power gain from the addition of a windage tray between similar combos.  I've also never seen indication that I've lost oil control without one.   

Modern oil pans go a long way. 

[Rory428]

Yet another example where numbers on a engine dyno don`t always mean the same thing in a real world situation , like with an engine actually installed in a vehicle, and subjected to forces that an engine sitting stationary on a dyno cradle can not duplicate. A windage tray can help keep the rotating assembly from whipping the oil into a frothing mess, under hard acceleration, when the oil in a front sump oil pan rushes to the rear, or when the oil rushes forward on heavy braking. So yes, if your engine is not going to be actually in a moving vehicle, a tray will not do much. Neither will oil pan baffles & trap doors, secondary jet extensions in the carb, or a hood scoop. But if the engine may actually see the conditions the engineers determined were worthy of developing such items to address, maybe, just maybe, there may be some benefit .

[blykins]

Not sure why emotions always flare with some of this old Ford stuff.....

With as many FE's as I have out there, including drag race, road race, pulling, etc., I still have yet to see the benefit of a tray.   Now trap doors, deep sumps, and high quality pans?  Definitely. 

I feel like a lot of this stuff was really pertinent a long time ago when the parts selection just wasn't there.   Not so much now.   Very rarely do I put a 5 quart pan on anything.

So if the tray doesn't show power on the dyno and the engines come back with clean bearings on tear down, what am I missing?   

[My427stang]

     I believe the first and foremost intention is for oil control and quality for engine survivability, with dyno numbers being a secondary benefit, one result not always indicative of the other.           

     Scott.

I think if you have enough pan, it does ZERO for engine survivability, and if you don't have enough pan, it's not going to save it at big HP numbers either.  Remember, they came out when CJs were emptying the pan and needed another quart.  When you overfill a crappy pan, you need a lid

I believe that a real screen or stripper, specifically something like a Canton screen, may peel some windage off for single digit numbers, but even as a user, the old Ford one, not so much.  It doesn't give a clean escape for the oil, if anything it just wads the windage up. 

[WerbyFord]

I'm not a tray expert in the range where they would do the most - ABOVE 5000rpm.
And below 4000-5000, I'd agree with Brent - don't bother.

I also agree w Rory's comments though & they ARE relevant to anything that pulls G's even off the line.
With that older big-ford & truck pan that is totally unbaffled:

I've seen the oil pressure fall away with a good gauge just launching a car at say 0.6 Gs (not very high, just good tires) if its as little as a quart low on oil. Too dangerous for me.
So I started building my own baffle plate for those big empty early/truck pans.
The pans are nice cuz they're almost an inch deeper than the later unibody pan, but no baffles at all is no good.

So if your truck pulls any G's at all off the line, adding a good baffle is a MUST, but don't bother about the tray.

[jayb]

I really need to build a clear oil pan and see exactly what a windage tray does on the dyno.  I always use them, I like the Moroso tray best because it has a bunch of louvers in it.  But I really don't know if it makes any difference...

[cjshaker]

Not sure why emotions always flare with some of this old Ford stuff.....

So if the tray doesn't show power on the dyno and the engines come back with clean bearings on tear down, what am I missing?

A few horsepower on the track, which a dyno or bearing check will never show.

Brent, the only person that shows emotion, is you, whenever somebody suggests that you just might be wrong about something. You can never concede the fact that there's even a possibility, and you'll double down on your 'opinion'. Just because you can't prove something on a dyno, doesn't mean it doesn't have advantages.

Any truck that sees any time off the beaten path, will be splashing oil up into the crank. Anything that can stop that from happening, is good, right? Even if it doesn't have negative effects on the bearings. I used to pull the kids through the fields in the wintertime snow, sitting on a hood that was chained to my Highboy. Good times, but the fields would bounce the hell out of my truck. I had to use my seatbelt to keep from banging my head off the headliner. I have zero doubts that the tray kept oil off the crank, and those rides would last 15-20 minutes. I'm betting it made a difference, but there's no way to prove it. That was just an old field truck, but any situation could benefit from it, short of a cruiser.

[fastf67]

I believe there is a place for them. A low rpm 2wd street truck not so much. A windsor stroker in a fox body at the track or cobra on a road course, oh ya. I don't think anybody will ever be able to define how much power loss there could be or bearing failures with out it as there's way to many variables involved in this situation. Hard enough to make a dyno pull, come back the next day and hit the exact same number or how strong a fastener is. Not used here, well arp has stretch measured in but Tourqe-to-yeild still defies logic to me. LOL. The hp loss in the drivetrain alone would be more to worry about then a gain of a tray. I can see saving bearings by keeping oil at the pick up screen or even it slowing down the climb rpms more then any hp loss and that's only in a environment that really would require one. Like in racing coming out of a corner and standing on it entering a straightaway or a hard launch with wheels in the air and a front sump. It is food for thought during the build process. I agree with brett on this build, skirts can have any extra oil. Don't bother with it.  Mike

[blykins]

Not sure why emotions always flare with some of this old Ford stuff.....

So if the tray doesn't show power on the dyno and the engines come back with clean bearings on tear down, what am I missing?

A few horsepower on the track, which a dyno or bearing check will never show.

Brent, the only person that shows emotion, is you, whenever somebody suggests that you just might be wrong about something. You can never concede the fact that there's even a possibility, and you'll double down on your 'opinion'. Just because you can't prove something on a dyno, doesn't mean it doesn't have advantages.

Any truck that sees any time off the beaten path, will be splashing oil up into the crank. Anything that can stop that from happening, is good, right? Even if it doesn't have negative effects on the bearings. I used to pull the kids through the fields in the wintertime snow, sitting on a hood that was chained to my Highboy. Good times, but the fields would bounce the hell out of my truck. I had to use my seatbelt to keep from banging my head off the headliner. I have zero doubts that the tray kept oil off the crank, and those rides would last 15-20 minutes. I'm betting it made a difference, but there's no way to prove it. That was just an old field truck, but any situation could benefit from it, short of a cruiser.

I will apologize if I come across with an emotional agenda. That's not my intent at all.  My intent is to prove things with data.  To me, data trumps "feelings" or "it's what the internet said to do on FE's". 

I will admit that Rory's reply came across like I had no "practical" data, only dyno numbers.   I actually have quite a bit of both and usually try to answer a forum post using data and not my gut.  Rory's fast and I give him props but I've also got some engines in some pretty quick cars and I'm able to accumulate a lot of data because of that.  I don't wanna be the bad guy because I'm the odd man out on a 100% consensus, but I call it how I see it.

I also do a lot of reading and have read some posts where some builders have seen horsepower losses because of windage trays.  There's a good bit of data out there saying how some of the trays do nothing to direct the oil, but do a lot to act like a shelf, which whips the oil up even more....kinda like what Ross was talking about up above.  So at the very least, just saying any windage tray will help could steer someone in the wrong direction. 

What seems to be the general consensus across a lot of engine builders is that a precisely designed crank scraper combined with a precisely designed oil pan is more beneficial.  That way you have something that adds horsepower due to the shedding of oil off the crank as well as oil windage control.