Sidewinder vs PI intake .....

[JC-427Stroker]

Hi guys,

New here to the site,  but not so much with  performance Ford stuff.  I've been playing in the  385 realm since about '87 and some Windsor stuff over the years.  After my #1 toy (950 hp, 13:1 A-headed  565 with single 1,050  gets it's refurb this year) Hopefully I'll have time for the 427MR stroker motor that's been sitting around since it dropped a valve in around '84 -'85. The engine was "on loan" from my dad to my brother and me.  ( I'm still not sure who in the heck loans their 17 & 18 year old kids an engine like that and says .. "If you put a rod thru the block you're in trouble. ... Oh,  and make sure you put new brakes on that car ( '69 Mach 1) because if you kill yourselves in that thing your mom will be pissed off at me" That was in '81 when my older brother was a senior in high school)  We assumed it dropped a valve and so it sat for damn near 30 year.  I decided to pull the engine out of the car maybe 7 years ago .... It had a single broken rocker arm.  Well damn.

Anyway,  I've been cleaning parts to put on the self for later and I have an intake manifold dilemma. Maybe 90% of those in here can answer this question for me. because I just don't know.

 
After a little time in the bead blaster.

The 427 stroker ( stn bore at the time)  had the PI intake on it.   Some years back (better than 15) I got the Shelby Sidewinder out of an old boat junk yard. ( Had to buy the POS 390 it was bolted to to get the intake) it cost me $350. The rest of the engine was all JUNK.

When this engine goes back together with Survival MR heads ( I must have purchased those from Barry close to 7 years back. Maybe longer)  and .015 over, with the 428 crank, 10.25:1 and roller cam to make power to 6,800 it will be tested with the Eddy Victor (with Dominator flange).  I've had from the second year they were made  (just for this occasion). Problem is,  that is not very nostalgic. I'm sure it will kill the other two in power though.  I do have The Great FE Intake Comparo  book .

From the book the Sidewider did horrible. When it was designed did they just not understand intake manifold design with air flow velocity ?  Both intakes I have basically have the same intake port opening (both unported) with the SW opening up to much larger runners does the intake just lose airspeed ? 

How much benefit would either the PI or SW get from a welded Dominator flange and a total  reworking of the plenum ? Would it be worth the effort or would it just screw up a very nice early intake manifold ?

Oh ... could someone direct me to a thread about FE tunnel rams and what's available ?

Thanks,

[Joe-JDC]

A couple of observations.  If you have hood clearance, it makes much more sense to use a Super Sucker spacer to adapt the Dominator to the 4150 carb pad and not mess with the cost of conversion.  The -F intake as cast averages ~285-290 cfm, the -J sidewinder ~320 cfm, and the -K sidewinder 338 cfm.  A simple gasket match of the Victor 427 will increase the flow to over 430 cfm, and with plenum work, real porting, the Victor will flow over 480 cfm.  The best you can expect from the -F with someone who can fully port it is ~370 cfm, the sidewinder ~390 cfm.

Tunnel ram intakes for the FE are difficult to find, and expensive.  Jay Brown has an adapter that can be used with Cleveland Tunnel Ram which will support those Survival heads quite well.    Joe-JDC

[JC-427Stroker]

Thank you for the information on the intakes. I'll save it away.

Now I need to find the information on that adapter for the TR.

Jon

[thatdarncat]

Thank you for the information on the intakes. I'll save it away.

Now I need to find the information on that adapter for the TR.

Jon

The intake adapters to use a 351C intake on a FE engine are made by Jay, who also runs the FE Power forum here. They’re on the home page, here’s the link:

http://www.fepower.net/Products/feiamr.html

[Rory428]

My Sidewinder had some work done to it, (port matched to my C8OE-N iron CJ heads, and the plenum divider cut down to the floor), but out of the 5 different 1x4 barrel intake manifolds that I tried on my 428 powered Fairmont drag car, that modified Sidewinder ran the best 1/4 mile numbers. The other intakes were a ported F427, modified Streemaster, Offenhauser Port O Sonic, and an unported Victor. The Sidewinder ran the quickest and fastest, although to be honest, the 5 were all within a tenth of a second. That said, this was in a drag car with 4.86 gears and a C6 with a 4500 stall convertor and a transbrake, no idea how these same intakes would compare on a street car. If your Mach 1 has a Shaker hood, the Sidewinder won`t work with the Shaker, unless you did some reworking of the air cleaner base. On my old 69 and 70 R code Mach 1s, I had good fitment with the Shaker when using the Streetmaster, F 427, PI, and obviously, an iron CJ intake.

[dozz302]

Ford I don't think made any "Bad"  intake manifolds for the FE engine (CJ, 427) They were all great. Including both the PI and Sidewinder.
I love the Sidewinder intake performance.
 I will say that on a 454 with stock Medium Riser heads & Sidewinder, 571-580 Lunati cam, 11:1, automatic drag car with a 3500 converter, >>a 2" open spacer is worth 1.5 tenths off the 1/4 mile et. (standard Holley flange with Holley 750 carb). Car has run a 10.49. 4:30 gear 3100LB going down the track.
One thing I think people overlook is the simple fact that flow numbers are not everything. Having an intake and just running air thru it doesn't tell the true story on how the intake works with the cylinder head port, cam, all the other variables involved with the engine.
One more thing THE STOCK CAST IRON CJ INTAKE IS AN EXCELLENT INTAKE.

[Joe-JDC]

Flow numbers may not be everything to you, but when an engine picks up 40 hp with the manifold being ported, or 25 more horsepower than a gasket matched intake, then flow becomes important to racers.  I have worked with those intakes mentioned above for the last 49 years, and every one of them that I have ported helped the owner make more horsepower.  Not one single person ever came back and said their car was slower after my port work.  Balancing the flow between planes,  end runners and middle runners on a single plane intake always helps with jetting issues and torque production.  There is a 30+ cfm difference between the upper plane and lower planes of the sidewinder intake manifolds.   Joe-JDC

[1967 XR7 GT]

For Nostalgia reasons, I went with the Sidewinder for my build, but mine I had welded and then ported by Joe-JDC. My build is a 468 with a set of Blair's Pro Ports that flow 330 cfm and the Sidewinder was ported to those. My cam choice for nostalgia reasons, is the Ford "D" cam @ .625" x 272 @ .050"


Here is a partial post I recently came across by Joe, that I found very informative:

As I read through all this and listen to the questions, it really enforces my point that I have tried to make several times in the past about the head flow and intake manifold flow percentages.  If a XXX head flows 330 cfm, then for maximum performance, the intake needs ~120% more flow, or 396cfm.   You reach a point where the head flow and camshaft average lift/flow numbers do not change regardless of the manifold added to the top of the engine.  It simply will not flow more air unless you change the average flow numbers to a higher number, change the compression ratio, or reduce exhaust pressures.  Every engine reaches a point where nothing will add power unless you change a major component to increase airflow into the combustion chamber.  JMO, experience from years of engine building, drag racing, porting, dyno testing.  Joe-JDC

Here is a picture of my manifold & porting results, and @ 388 average flow, it almost meets Joe's 120% more flow, so I feel good about my manifold choice. My choice was also limited by hood clearance, I ran a Port-O-Sonic before cause it cleared barely, but it's not factory.

And as to the reference to Jays book, that the sidewinder did horrible, I didn't see that, as a matter of fact, it did better than the PI all the way up to the 427, where a ported version of the PI was used against an unported Sidewinder, and Jay decided not to have the Sidewinder ported due to Value ?  And didn't see it doing any better on the 427 strokers, so didn't use it further. It's to bad a manifold like mine didn't get tested.

[JC-427Stroker]

Thanks for all the info guys.

Very helpful

[JC-427Stroker]

Flow numbers may not be everything to you, but when an engine picks up 40 hp with the manifold being ported, or 25 more horsepower than a gasket matched intake, then flow becomes important to racers.  I have worked with those intakes mentioned above for the last 49 years, and every one of them that I have ported helped the owner make more horsepower.  Not one single person ever came back and said their car was slower after my port work.  Balancing the flow between planes,  end runners and middle runners on a single plane intake always helps with jetting issues and torque production.  There is a 30+ cfm difference between the upper plane and lower planes of the sidewinder intake manifolds.   Joe-JDC

Thank you.   30 cfm difference.. Yikes.

I'll be building the engine with my old friend, Geoff Mummert.  He knows a few things about porting and airflow.
He's the guy who built the 2nd place EMC  289 engine in the 2019 competition. We've worked on several projects together over the past 20+ years.

I do have a 1,000 cfm 4150 to run, but thinking about a 1,050 domi too.

Thanks for the information. Much appreciated.

[Joe-JDC]

I know Geoff well, was there at the EMC, dyno'ed his 289 after it came back to figure out the miss fire at EMC.  Sorted it out, and it was strong.  Ported many sets of the Mummert heads and intake manifolds for Ys.  I was Runner Up in 2018 with Y.   Joe-JDC

[JC-427Stroker]

Great.   

I was with him and the engine at Westech when it was tested before shipping.   I haven't asked him if the misfire was ever figured out.

He's done some port work on the Survival MR heads for this thing.  He and I are working on my 565 together now. He first did the heads on it in 2003.   

[pbf777]

How much benefit would either the PI or SW get from a welded Dominator flange and a total  reworking of the plenum ? Would it be worth the effort or would it just screw up a very nice early intake manifold ?

      Save a lot of work (and perhaps avoiding the "screw up" issue), and providing the opportunity for a comparison, hunt-up one of the SHELBY numbered GFMK-9424-H intakes already cast for the Dominator!     

      Scott.

     

[pbf777]

There is a 30+ cfm difference between the upper plane and lower planes of the sidewinder intake manifolds.   Joe-JDC

      In the example provided by 1967 XR7 GT's posting of the flow sheet do you have a conclusion of, or perhaps just remember, what the issues as presented by port #1 and Port #5 inflicting the suffering flow numbers as observed ("stock"), and perhaps your "fix", particularly with #5 which you apparently revisited for the specific #3 test where you perhaps had a plan addressing this ports' deficit uniquely?   

     Thank you,
     Scott.

[Joe-JDC]

Some secrets need to remain secrets since I still do occasional porting for old customers.  Very few folks have the ability to actually flow the individual ports of an intake manifold, and even fewer care.  Joe-JDC