FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: fe66comet on July 07, 2014, 01:20:45 PM
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I see they now offer FE bell housings from Quick time for the T56. I was wondering if anyone has used the T56 behind the FE? It is larger and heavier than the 600, I wonder if the extra gear is worth the extra 50 lbs and the effort of fitting the larger case under the floor. On the other hand it is also stronger at 700 ft lbs rather than 600 for the TKO. What do you guys think?
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Looking at wide or close ration T56?
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After asking some questions about Tremecs last year on this forum, I ended up buying a T-56 from American Powertrain. Of course they said I would have all the parts for the kit in 1-2 weeks. This was last April. My Quicktime bell didn't arrive until October ::) As a result I no longer had time to put the car together; hoping that I will be able to get that done after Drag Week this year. If I run into installation issues I will post them on the forum.
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Yeah with new stuff it always takes time to get all the ducks in line. How big is it compared to a trans like a the T5?, I am picturing a trans sized like a NV 4500. Length won't be an issue for me but the bell housing and case I am thinking is going to make it hard. I currently have a T5 four cylinder trans, it has some extra room but not much on top or the bell housing area.
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It's huge.
It's not only much heavier, but most importantly in the case of factory cars, it's much bigger around and longer.
The extra gear just doesn't cut it for me. Yes, Quicktime makes a bell, but there has to be a good bit of modification done to the midplate of the trans to get it to work with a clutch fork or some of the twin disc clutches that we use in front of them.
I sell a lot of TKO 600 kits and I'm racking my brain trying to remember if I've ever heard of anyone breaking one. We do some modifications to them to increase the torque capacity by about 90-100 lb-ft, so don't discount the 600 as an option. Much cheaper too....
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Amen on that Brent , what mod s are you doing to add the extra 90-100 ft lbs ? .. Bud
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Change shift finger, do a basic blueprint of thrust clearances, then treat some of the parts cryogenically.
All of these transmissions are made on an assembly line. Like anything else mass produced, there are tolerances and tolerance stacking. Blueprinting and correcting the tolerance issues will go a long way.
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Great info Brent , what s the bill to do that to new 600 ? .. Bud
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I don't think I've talked to jay about being a vender here, so we should prob discuss pricing offline.
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I sell a lot of TKO 600 kits and I'm racking my brain trying to remember if I've ever heard of anyone breaking one. We do some modifications to them to increase the torque capacity by about 90-100 lb-ft, so don't discount the 600 as an option. Much cheaper too....
I could break one ;D ;D ;D
Seriously, its good to know that you can modify a TKO for increased torque, Brent, that would be useful for a lot of mid to high horsepower engines. I bought the T56 because I was thinking that at some point I might put my supercharged engine in the car with this transmission, and I think it may even be marginal for that 900 lb-ft monster...
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Well, the same mods can be done to the t-56. You can essentially increase the torque capacity by 15%. However, you may want to look into a lenco. :-)
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Gotta admit that I've daydreamed about a T56-Magnum... (extension of daydreams about doing an old T-56 out of a viper) mostly because of the ability to get the 0.50 6th gear... Running 4.xx-ish gears on reasonable height tires and still being able to cruise on the freeway without being at 3K RPM is the fuel for this daydream... On the other hand - my car has been waiting for me to finish the C-6 transplant for the better part of 2 years - so until the kids are out of the house I'll just keep bench-racing my daydreams...
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Kids out of the house , charge em rent lol ( tranny and parts ) just kidding i know what that is all about .... Bud
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Hey BigNate what rpm / mph for cruising are you thinking ? , how tall a tire ? ..Bud
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I am leaning torward a treated TKO 600 myself as my latest project is mini in nature LOL. Just to stuff a FE in there I am going to have to loose the A/c evaporator and blower housing and build a remote ducted deal, also have to go manual brakes and get rid of the booster. And last but not least a steering rack is the only way to clear the wider engine, it pretty much fills the whole engine compartment and then some. I am thinking of cutting the floor to clear the 12" bell housing and using a hydraulic throw out bearing from Tilton. If the T56 is that huge, no way I have room, I will end up with two 14" bucket seats between a 18" round pipe cut in half for a tunnel LOL.
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Kinda steering off topic - - but pertains to lots of us.
Brent - how has your supply been on TKO 600s and clutch parts? My local guy has been darn near cleaned out lately, and he is/was one of the biggest Tremec WDs in the country. He said something about increased OE production eating up all the manufacturing capacity. I have net been truly "hurt" yet, but it's gotten me a little nervous a couple times as we scramble for parts...
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That is the way of the T56 right now, lots of pics but no transmissions. But that does mean the 600 will be more easily had as Ford, GM and Dodge do away with the five speeds to meet fuel standards. There is even talk of a 4WD version in the works for OEM. It will replace the aging NV 4500 trans in the diesel truck market.
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Can't really see the need for a T56 other than ultimate strength if you're going big power. .50 gear is going to only pull 1700rpm running 70mph even with a 4.11, most any hotrod engine is going to be cammed where that is not really a good RPM to pull that much load. Hard to say as I don't know anyone trying it, maybe stroker in a light car can do it effectively, and OEM stuff does it with taller gears so I'm sure EFI cars can do it.
If you run more than 4.11 with the 2.97 first gear, seems like it's getting too steep.
The close ratio does make some sense with intermediate .82 fifth gear if you want to road race or have a canyon car, but the .63 sixth is same as a TKO for cruising.
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Barry,
I haven't had any issues in getting anything....Tremec, Quicktime, McLeod, or RAM. Actually I've had better luck with availability on that stuff than I have had with engine parts. I've been ordering a lot of custom stuff lately though....custom cranks, rods, etc.
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I've been running a T56 Magnum behind my Survival 527cid FE for almost a year now and behind a stockish 390 for a year before that.
This is the close ratio version. 3.50 R/P. My car is a 67 Mustang fastback.
I am super happy with it. Shifts like a hot knife through butter.
It is also nice to know that I don't have to have it modified to handle the torque.
Bought a complete kit from American Powertrain which included a Quick Time bell housing and a hydraulic throw out bearing kit. Took a little while from I placed my order and until it showed up but not really a problem since it was winter.
Gray Fredrick at AP was very helpful and answered all my (stupid) questions every time.
When I put in the 527 I replaced the stock pressure plate and sintered AP clutch disc with a McLeod dual disc. Now I've got smooth shifting AND smooth pedal.
Love it! ;D
It is so nice to take the Mustang for a ride with my wife and stay below 2000rpm on the freeway. Really helps on mpg and db as well.
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How did you like the hydraulic throwout setup? Considering it for my car, would love to dump the stock linkage. I have a Galaxie chassis so guessing it won't be a plug and play, but figure Mustang stuff can be adapted, only real difference should be pushrod from the pedal and firewall mounting.
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After asking some questions about Tremecs last year on this forum, I ended up buying a T-56 from American Powertrain. Of course they said I would have all the parts for the kit in 1-2 weeks. This was last April. My Quicktime bell didn't arrive until October ::) As a result I no longer had time to put the car together; hoping that I will be able to get that done after Drag Week this year. If I run into installation issues I will post them on the forum.
I got my T56 XL from Modern Driveline. A guy named Paul over there was awesome. Helped me work out hot to make the T56 work with the FE (without having machine work done to the shaft), worked with Tremec to get me a custom Spacer that works with the FE bell housing and the FE, and got it to me Fast! I actually contacted American Powertrain first, and after 2 weeks of going back and forth with the tech while he tried to figure out how to make it work, and then how much machine work would need to be done, I didn't have much confidence. Glad I went with Modern Driveline. 8)
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We send them out machined and ready to roll, so you don't have to use any adapters. The issue isn't really the shaft, it's the front mounting plate (called the midplate).
Sounds like Modern Driveline basically just had a spacer designed to go between the T-56 and a factory FE bell.
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Correct. When talking to American Powertrain, the tech was going to have the T56 pulled apart and then they were going to shorten the input shaft, then couldn't find a shortened shaft that would work, so was going to have the tech cut the shaft to size and weld back together. Then he started talking about chargine me by the hour for the fab work and delays due to fabrication..... Being as expensive as the package was, I just wanted simple and the spacer seemed like a no brainer :0)
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That's weird, they didn't say anything to me about a requirement for any special machine work; the only requirement was to use a particular bellhousing. After reading all this I think I'd better bolt the transmission and clutch setup to the engine and make sure everything fits OK before I pull the old motor out of the car...
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Jay, the biggest issue is how you're are actuating the clutch and which clutch kit you're actuating. If you're using a twin disc setup, I would look very closely at it before you pull it apart.
Obviously, if you're using a Quicktime bell, you won't need to shorten the input shaft, but there is some machining that needs to be done to the midplate, along with the fitment of a different pivot ball stud if you're using a fork setup.
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I actually bought the clutch setup from American Powertrain also, and a hydraulic clutch setup too. So I don't have to worry about the mechanical clutch linkage...
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Hydraulic slave or hydraulic bearing?
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How did you like the hydraulic throwout setup? Considering it for my car, would love to dump the stock linkage. I have a Galaxie chassis so guessing it won't be a plug and play, but figure Mustang stuff can be adapted, only real difference should be pushrod from the pedal and firewall mounting.
I like it alot. The bearing itself have a threaded bushing inside so adjusting the clearance is a simple matter of winding the bearing in/out.
The kit also came with an adjustable firewall bracket where the wilwood master cylinder(included) is attached. The bracket can be angled to any desired angle you want to clear stuff and to get a good angle on the rod going to the pedal. An adjustable rod for the pedal is included as well. The bracket attaches through the hole where the stock linkage passes through the firewall.
Only modification to this setup I did was to drill a new hole in the pedal about 1/4" closer to the hinge point to get an even lighter push on the pedal.
My joints hurt so I do whatever I can to ease things :)
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Hydraulic slave or hydraulic bearing?
Hydraulic bearing.
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You should be good to go then. No having to fool with pivot ball studs, clutch fork to pressure plate clearance, throw out bearing to pressure plate clearance, etc.
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Also of note, is that I have the Tremec T56 XL. I believe the XL, when used with the quicktime Bellhousing, has the input shaft length problem.
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Which bell do you have? FE to Viper T-56?
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Under what load conditions , weight of a said vehicle does tremec calculate torque capacity of a tko 500-600 or even a t-56 ..Bud
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That was my thought easier on the leg and no worries about linkage clearance around headers and such. The Tilton will handle the throw out chores in my case. The slave is already there with a remote reservoir. You could grab a Mustang, Ranger or full size pickup pedal assembly to make it happen or get a universal floor mount single pedal so you can leave your throttle and brake arrangements alone. Try S&W and see what they have.
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Hey BigNate what rpm / mph for cruising are you thinking ? , how tall a tire ? ..Bud
the T-56 really is a pipe-dream right now. The car currently has 275-60 X 15's (about 28") on it and 3.89 gears going in. This, with my 1:1 final drive in the C-6 will put me at about 3500 RPM @ 75mph - even with that fairly tall tire. Cutting that in half (1750ish at freeway speeds) is the daydream.
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Can't really see the need for a T56 other than ultimate strength if you're going big power. .50 gear is going to only pull 1700rpm running 70mph even with a 4.11, most any hotrod engine is going to be cammed where that is not really a good RPM to pull that much load.
For me - the appeal of the .50 is exactly that. Being able to run at less than 2000 rpm, over 70 mph. It is a pure "loaf along the freeway" gear... The intent is not to "pull hard through 6th" - and I suspect that just about anyone who would be looking at doing so would be is such rare air power wise (thinking about the hard core Bonneville or Texas Mile crowd) that the T-56 would not be in the running as a race trans.
As to the cam bit... not all "hot-rodders" make power with huge compression and 300 degrees of duration... turbo's don't want a bunch of cam... ;)
Just my 2 cents...
EDIT - When I read the cam sentence above I realized that it might come across as a bit snarky. No offense intended - just noting that I'm not worried about having the necessary torque / engine manners at 1700 to maintain cruising speed... :-)
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Gotcha, makes sense. I initially was thinking limited applications, but then after thinking of all the late models pulling this kind of gear, started to see more possibilities as long as the engine pulls clean down there.
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I would think it would be important to stay within your cams rpm cruise range , mine is 2650-3050 and my 07 shelby s owners manual warned against lugging the motor , 6th gear was better used 80-85 mph and up .. Bud
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I could see running a 4:10 or 4:56 with the higher sixth gear. But really I would rarely use it, we are not far enough out to go any more than 75 miles an hour and keep your license.
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Can't really see the need for a T56 other than ultimate strength if you're going big power. .50 gear is going to only pull 1700rpm running 70mph even with a 4.11, most any hotrod engine is going to be cammed where that is not really a good RPM to pull that much load.
For me - the appeal of the .50 is exactly that. Being able to run at less than 2000 rpm, over 70 mph. It is a pure "loaf along the freeway" gear... The intent is not to "pull hard through 6th" - and I suspect that just about anyone who would be looking at doing so would be is such rare air power wise (thinking about the hard core Bonneville or Texas Mile crowd) that the T-56 would not be in the running as a race trans.
As to the cam bit... not all "hot-rodders" make power with huge compression and 300 degrees of duration... turbo's don't want need a bunch of cam... ;)
Just my 2 cents...
EDIT - When I read the cam sentence above I realized that it might come across as a bit snarky. No offense intended - just noting that I'm not worried about having the necessary torque / engine manners at 1700 to maintain cruising speed... :-)
I fixed it for you. Turbos like big cams... just with lots of lobe separation.
http://www.prolineracing.net/classifieds/blog
I promise all these cars have HUGE cams in them.
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How does the T56 shift? I know the TKO shifts pretty well as this is an important question IMO as a clunky, slow shifting trans can kill a lot of speed-shifting fun.
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How does the T56 shift? I know the TKO shifts pretty well as this is an important question IMO as a clunky, slow shifting trans can kill a lot of speed-shifting fun.
I think the T56 Magnum shifts super smooth. Crisp and precise with a fairly long shifter. But I have no experience with the TKO so I can't compare.
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Thanks!
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How does the T56 shift? I know the TKO shifts pretty well as this is an important question IMO as a clunky, slow shifting trans can kill a lot of speed-shifting fun.
I think the T56 Magnum shifts super smooth. Crisp and precise with a fairly long shifter. But I have no experience with the TKO so I can't compare.
I'm running a TKO600 and I think it shifts very slowly. My previous trans were all nice, slick, toploaders or T5s though so that should give you some relative idea of what I mean. I almost sent it off to Liberty before and may still do that, but for right now I'll have to just wait for the revs to drop when shifting. The way Liberty explains it is that the T5 design was essentially beefed up all around to handle the expected torque load and this resulted in big beefy gears that take a while to slow down when up shifting and they have a few tricks for getting things to work together.
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Can't really see the need for a T56 other than ultimate strength if you're going big power. .50 gear is going to only pull 1700rpm running 70mph even with a 4.11, most any hotrod engine is going to be cammed where that is not really a good RPM to pull that much load.
For me - the appeal of the .50 is exactly that. Being able to run at less than 2000 rpm, over 70 mph. It is a pure "loaf along the freeway" gear... The intent is not to "pull hard through 6th" - and I suspect that just about anyone who would be looking at doing so would be is such rare air power wise (thinking about the hard core Bonneville or Texas Mile crowd) that the T-56 would not be in the running as a race trans.
As to the cam bit... not all "hot-rodders" make power with huge compression and 300 degrees of duration... turbo's don't want need a bunch of cam... ;)
Just my 2 cents...
EDIT - When I read the cam sentence above I realized that it might come across as a bit snarky. No offense intended - just noting that I'm not worried about having the necessary torque / engine manners at 1700 to maintain cruising speed... :-)
I fixed it for you. Turbos like big cams... just with lots of lobe separation.
http://www.prolineracing.net/classifieds/blog
I promise all these cars have HUGE cams in them.
:-) Remember the video of Dan Millen driving his outlaw car a couple of miles down the road through the burger king drive through for lunch?
Even at that level the power-plant is more well mannered that a comparable motor that gets to the same HP with compression ratio, related overlap and perhaps a whole bunch of laughing gas. :-) Just sayin...
(sorry for tangenting the thread a bit... let me know if you want me to kill the post...)
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Several companies offer shift upgrades for the TKO, I am thinking of doing an upgraded front throw out housing, upgraded syncros, surface treatment and shifter upgrades.
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Works for me Nate LOL.
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I actually looked back through my correspondence, and the reason you would need an input shaft altered would be only if you plan to use the T56-XL with a ford FE. The "regular" T56 works without modification, but I needed a T56XL due to its stock shifter location in the Mustang. Wanted to clarify. ::)
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I am running a cam that to me is not that radical at all , 232-240 @.50 .559/.563 on a 112 lobe so its power brake friendly http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/Smileys/default/cheesy.gif ..Bud
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If you have room it is a good choice for sure. I do not have the space for it plus the the extra weight is a issue also. I am putting my project on the slimfast plan LOL.