Holding 13:1 compression?

[FE Jonny]

Can I use a cometic steel gasket with aluminum heads or do I have to O- ring? Looking to run 13:1 with E85 and torque cam. Keeping RPM under 6 grand, I am going to mill the block and heads with flat tops.

[blykins]

Cometics will work fine if the surface finish is up to par.

So what would happen if they stopped selling E85 in your area (which is possible...)? 

On a street engine, going from 10.5:1 to 13:1 may only net you 30-40 hp.  I would personally rather have the convenience of being able to drive anywhere in the US without having to worry about finding an E85 station.....not to mention that you will use a lot more E85 than you would with regular pump gas.

[cjshaker]

So what would happen if they stopped selling E85 in your area (which is possible...)? 

....I would personally rather have the convenience of being able to drive anywhere in the US without having to worry about finding an E85 station.....

I'm guessing this isn't going to be a grocery getter....or cross country cruiser

[jayb]

I use Cometics on my 13:1 high riser with no O-rings, and no problems.

[Stangman]

What kind of modifications need to be done to run E85

[Posi67]

Cometic is the ONLY way to go IMO. Same thing Comp eliminator guys use at 16-1 compression and they are re-usable which offsets the initial cost in a hurry.

[My427stang]

What kind of modifications need to be done to run E85

A carb that has big enough restrictions in each circuit to feed the increased fuel requirement and a proper advance curve. 

[Falcon67]

What kind of modifications need to be done to run E85

A/F ratio is on the order of 9:1 or so.  Quick Fuel sells a block set to upgrade a Holley.  Otherwise, heavy mods required.  It's about 2/3 way from gas to methanol.  I've seen guys testing run faster on methanol when they forgot to put any jets in the primary metering block - takes that much fuel to run alcohol. 

Also, be sure the rest of the fuel system is up to the volume required.  And I'd recommend you run a top lube with every tank.

And as above - it's not even sold around here.  I can get it if I want to put a barrel in the truck bed and drive 180 miles or so.  Or pay out the nose for VP.  Also, IIRC, the specification for E85 runs from E70-E90 so the formulation (and your carb calibration) can change depending on your location and time of year. 

IMHO - If you want to run 13:1 and an alcohol fuel, buy a carb calibrated for Methanol and buy VP by the drum.  It's not that expensive, relatively.  The benefit is that you get a fuel that is the same every time you buy it and you have one mixer calibrated for that fuel.  You want to switch to gas, you change carbs.  OR - if you insist on 13:1 then just go get VP 112 and be done with it.  E85 or Methanol, you are setting yourself up for increased maintenance. 

[Stangman]

Thanks guys never too old to learn

[FE Jonny]

Well been around a while, just got rid of everything I had and cleaned house. I am running E85 due to in the Midwest it is plentiful and cheap. Also it is emissions friendly so I would be exempt as long as I pass a visual. I am changing my plan from a HP engine to a Torque monster and no better way to do it them with big compression, I was thinking 14:1 but in the winter the mix is more like 60% alcohol so I want to avoid detonation. Generally with the advantage of majorly advanced timing and way higher compression you gain about 30-40 percent effeiciency but use 30% more fuel so it equals out consumption wise. Torque and HP is definetlly boosted along with a lot better throttle response. The down side is you cannot let fuel sit, it attracts moisture so you have to use it up. What I will do is store it in a 55 gallon drum and mix it to my desired spec to maintain consistency. Around here 105 octane aviation fuel runs about 10 bucks a gallon, at the same octane E85 is 83 cents a gallon, that is below 10% cheaper a gallon. I am running a SN95 computer with a Moats Quarterhorse and Jaybird tuner so I can change timing, firing order and injector sequence along with get rid of batch fire to further increase efficiency. I think I can get 500 HP, and about 30 MPG out of it when all is said and done, I am going to have to change my roller cam to something different with less overlap to maintain compression though. Some guys I have seen are running 14:1 with boost and still not detonating. I am building a driver that has to run in cold weather so I want to keep compression around 13:1 to allow for a slightly higher gas content for easier starting below freezing. I am going to be running 33/12.50 tires, a T19 with a 6.7:1 first gear / 1:1 fourth and 3.70 gears so RPM should be about 2800-3000 on the highway.

[bill_396]

I'm building my 12.6 to 1 461 for E-85. Here in Michigan it's available at most stations. I can see the smoke coming out of the stacks of the Ethanol plant on my way to work!

[FE Jonny]

Actually Michigan is where I am moving to, I would like to end up by Iron Mountain or Marquette. Right now I am in Illinois but can't leave here soon enough LOL. Besides then I can stop by and harass Barry LOL.

[FE Jonny]

I wish I would have waited before I bought my intake and carbs. Now I am going injection. I have two 750 Eddys converted to E85 and a dual quad air gap intake sitting on the shelf.

[Autoholic]

I don't buy the 85 cents a gallon for E85. Please explain because this part didn't make any sense. E85 is normally a little cheaper than regular, but what you save at the pump per gallon, you use up in fuel consumption. So it's a wash as far as fuel costs go. The benefit of E85 is when you use it in a forced induction application. You can't really capitalize on the benefits of E85 with natural aspiration. Sure you'll make more power regardless, but if my goal was to run E85 I'd do it with a supercharger or turbos in mind. Your static compression ratio is also kind of pointless without knowing what your dynamic is. You could run a lower compression piston that ends up with a higher dynamic CR, resulting in more power. It all depends on your cam choice. Something else to consider is, will the engine ever run another fuel? If you consider running any other fuel than E85, you're engine design choices have to reflect that and it's not just fuel consumption. Flex fuel engines are a compromise between being able to switch between 2 very different types of fuel and performance. To try and get everything you can out of E85 means that E85 has to become the only fuel you can run, without modifying the engine. Because you are going with EFI, this means remapping the ECU to take into account a different fuel. Chances are changing out the injectors will also be necessary. And if you switch to a lower octane gas, your engine might starting pinging because your cam choice and cam timing was designed for an alcohol.

[westcoastgalaxie]

Say what? 500 hp and 30 mpg??? I hope that is a typo, no way you are going to get that kind of mpg. I'd be surprised if you even broke 10 mpg.

[FE Jonny]

The advantage of the higher compression is only a small part of the big picture, you can run your ignition way more advanced and your engine runs 20 degrees cooler. The incoming air charge is also then cooled substantially, thereby increasing density of the incoming air charge. That combined with the ignition being advance 10-15 degrees adds to some bigger numbers and better throttle response. You can easily run 14:1 compression if you are picky about your fuel mixture and adjust your content before filling up. Kinda funny that if you are running strait alcohol instantly everyone is impressed on the strip but if you add 15% gas for lubrication then you are an idiot LOL.

[Autoholic]

Adding 15% gas for lubrication??? You don't add petrol to alcohol for some sort of lubrication gain. Petrol is added to the alcohol to bring up the energy density, so you don't burn as much fuel. It's about octane vs energy density when it comes to ethanol. It has nothing to do with lubrication. Today's petrol does not lubricate an engine.

Ethanol has a significantly higher octane rating than petroleum. This allows for a higher compression engine, resulting in increased mechanical efficiency for an ICE, without risking detonation. The problem is ethanol also has a significantly lower energy density than petroleum, meaning it will take more ethanol to fuel the engine. So your fuel consumption goes up. To try and balance this out, petroleum is added to the ethanol to bring up its energy density so not as much fuel is required. The engine will still consume more E85 than regular E10 or non-ethanol petroleum, but it will consume less than E100, or pure ethanol. There are other benefits, like ethanol burning at a colder temperature which allows for various things like increased boost, combined with an increase in octane and also burning cleaner than pure petroleum. Again, the whole reason behind E85 has nothing to do with lubrication.

[TomP]

30 MPG seems pretty optimistic. The big 4x4 truck is not the greatest choice for a gas miser.  The compression will help mileage, the main thing is to get the manifold vacuum up and the throttle opening close to closed and that means not lugging it.
 The higher fuel consumption for the E85 (even the 10% stuff hurts mileage) means getting 15 would be good and 20 would be amazing.

But I think you are on the right track with the high compression, EFI and a long runner intake.

[FE Jonny]

I am just playing around with different ideas, I have been reasearching doing an alcohol street driven conversion for a few years now. I do have a modified Power King tractor that I use for mowing that I run E85 in and I gained about 30% power and efieciency in a 12 HP Kohler engine. Of course it has completely modified internals and an after maker head to handle the increases compression and fuel demand. The carburetor I send was off a 18 HP engine and was rejected to handle the demand along with a intake and header exhaust. Pure alcohol washes the cylinders and causes hard starting so it does off some lubrication benefit and makes for a better burn. Overall it works quite well running much cooler and having great power at all RPM.

[cammerfe]

FWIW, I race in ECTA---E/F CC/S and use methanol with the 'spray'. I was first introduced to methanol as a teen-ager working as a go-fer around a midget racer that ran a 1.5 litre Offy engine on methanol. As a rule-of-thumb, the more methanol you pour in, the more power you make. Stay just shy of cylinder hydraulic lock. The midget would sit in the pits idling and dribbling liquid fuel out of the zoomies.

The day I set the E/F record I started out with a recommended methanol/nitrous oxide pill combination. And every time---three in all---I'd go back and bump the methanol jet up a couple of steps and re-set the record.

I've just scratched the surface of what's possible.

KS

[Autoholic]

Why not kick it up a notch and go nitro meth / nitrous?   But at this point, you're just a notch down from running H in your nitro. Nitro is great stuff, it burns everything in the cylinder... the valves, the pistons, the spark plugs, the piston rings and vaporizes your coolant too, which isn't even in the cylinder.... Aside from the whole instant death side of Hydrazine, that's some crazy stuff until half of your engine block beats you the finish line.

[cammerfe]

Do I detect a note of----sarcasm? At least I'm not standing on the sidelines.

I must be doing something right. I have +/- 160K on the clock and the engine is still going strong. It IS a daily driver.

And the ECTA Maxton record still stands.

At least you didn't suggest cherry mash.

KS

[Autoholic]

Actually I am kinda serious... you're only just below playing with nitro in your current setup. If you wanted to go full crazy, that would be your next step. But nitro would mean a full race setup, I can't imagine it being worth it to run it on the streets. You'd have to switch out some parts to go from street to strip. The good thing is that you can mix nitro with other fuels and work up to pure insanity.

Cherry Mash is what you should celebrate with.

[cjshaker]

Joe, care to share your experiences with Methanol, Nitro and high compression engines? Based on your suggestions, it sounds like you have done this before.

[cammerfe]

Actually I am kinda serious... you're only just below playing with nitro in your current setup. If you wanted to go full crazy, that would be your next step. But nitro would mean a full race setup, I can't imagine it being worth it to run it on the streets. You'd have to switch out some parts to go from street to strip. The good thing is that you can mix nitro with other fuels and work up to pure insanity.

Cherry Mash is what you should celebrate with.

I've always been interested in exploring fuel mixtures; starting, perhaps, with an independent  study of oxidizing pursuant to getting my AB in Chemistry. Aniline and RFNA make an interesting rocket fuel and aniline is a useful component in the fuel for internal combustion engines so you can see the progression.

When I was a kid, the 'Hollywood Hot Rod Shop' close by where I lived had 5-gallon cans of nitromethane stacked-up in a display and quart and pint cans were available also. (An experiment of pouring a pint into a tank of gas for the family flathead '53 Merc was a bit disappointing since there wasn't an immediate blazing increase in power.)

a VERY small idea way in the back of my mind regarding hydrazine may well be an itch that'll never get scratched but a splash of nitro is a strong possibility since my dedicated methanol/nitrous oxide set-up is a complete stand alone. All the controls for the bottle-heater, the electric tank valve, the fuel pump and the arming switch for the solenoids are immediately available to my left hand---see the photos in the 'Land Speed LS' thread in the HP section.

Since 'cherry mash' is a backwoods mix of the sort of stuff we've been talking about---from back in bootleg days, the methanol content would make you go blind if you were to drink it.

KS

[machoneman]

 Have you thought Ken of running toluene straight or at least a heavy percentage?

[Autoholic]

My background is in engineering, I haven't had personal experience with nitro. I know the specifics about running alcohols and roughly what it would take to step up from methanol to nitro-meth. You're biggest issue will be fuel consumption. Methanol will result in twice the fuel consumption of gasoline, while nitro will be like 8 to 9 times the fuel consumption of gasoline. The good thing is that you can mix nitro in small percentages into another fuel. When playing with nitro for almost any purpose, methanol naturally is the common fuel it is mixed with.

In a somewhat unrelated area, I've worked on a small liquid fuel rocket engine. I designed the fuel system for the rocket engine, it was of a blow down design that used nitrogen as the push gas, nitrous as the oxidizer and ethanol as the fuel. In hind sight, it would have been better to run methanol but the project wasn't mine. The project was to design, fabricate and test a new rocket test stand with a maximum load of 8000 N. The test rocket engine was designed to produce roughly 100 N. I'm also familiar with highly pressurized (3000 PSI) nitrogen systems, thanks to working for a company that loved to blow stuff up. That project always kinda scared me, you don't run into systems like that very often, designing and troubleshooting that system was entertaining... Oh and the bottles (6 of them) were at 6000 psi.

If I remember correctly, I did some diesel tests involving mixed bio-diesels and I swear one of the mixes used toluene... It's used sometimes in diesel so if you are running a high compression engine, that might be worth looking into. I believe it's toxic however when you burn it.

RFNA... ya, I stay the hell away from that stuff. There is no world in which "red fuming nitric acid" sounds like fun. If you want to study oxidizing agents in fuel, nitro is actually a really good one to look at. Nitro and hydrazine make up a very crude version of nitroglycerin if you were to try and look at a compound like it. The hydrazine works as an oxidizer for nitrogen and nitrogen works as a catalyst for hydrazine, and both are more or less mono propellants... So you get a chain reaction where both feed off of each other and eventually create pretty flames... If hydrazine wasn't carcinogenic, it would be kinda fun to play with. Nitro-methanol has a lot of oxygen already in it, hence its impossibly low AFR. Nitrous oxide can be used as a mono propellant by the way, so combining it with nitro-meth is like giving an inferno a tank of oil to play with. If your engine hasn't blown up from a methanol / nitrous setup, I don't see nitro creating problems until you play with close to a pure nitro setup. It would be interesting to see how a water injection setup could help with nitro... or really really cold nitrous... Damn, now my mind has gone down the path of no return, nitro and forced induction.......... where engines go to die in a blaze of glory.

[cammerfe]

Actually, what I've done in my DD/ECTA motor is to stay strictly within the guidelines when using gasoline/N20. When I went to CH3OH I used the suggestions from my sponsor, NX, as a place to start and simply went richer from there.

I'm being quite careful up to now since I've, so far, been using factory internals. I have a set of coated Ross forged pistons and a set of GRP billet aluminum rods and a Moldex crank to hang them on but I moved from my house (and garage) and all that stuff is now in storage. When I get the good engine finally put together I'll 'tip the can' a bit further.

I did a project for a guy who had deep pockets and we used toluene as a mixing agent for some combinations we tried. The engine was a 351 Cleveland which went satisfyingly faster with the mix we dreamed up. We went through about ten gallons of toluene before I was done.

Glyceryl trinitrate, on another note, is surprisingly easy to make, but you must regulate the reaction by controlling the temperature.

KS

[Autoholic]

A lot of explosives are surprisingly easy to make. The challenging part is not blowing yourself up in the process.

Talking about things that go kaboom reminds me of a test I was briefly involved with. One of the federal agencies wanted to conduct some tests on a specific type of explosion, an air / fuel explosion where a fuel was dispersed into the air and then ignited. The problem with trying to blow up a large amount of fuel, like in a gas tanker, is the AFR required. If you want to blow up a soda litre with fuel for example, you'd really only need to put a splash of fuel in it, let the gas fumes fill the air and then ignite it with a blasting cap. If you were to fill the litre with gas and try to ignite it, chances are you'd just end up setting the fuel on fire for a short amount of time. So this test used two explosives, one to disperse the fuel and the second to then ignite it. It was very difficult to get it to work and unreliable but one time, we had a water tanker that is normally used on a construction site, with 2400 gallons of a certain fuel. When the fuel was blown up, the energy from the blast shook the whole town. I went later that day to a store about 6 miles away from the site where the blast happened, and the blast blew the doors wide open. From the site to the store, there is a mountain in between them. Most of the shots done at that company don't effect the town, due to having a mountain between the test range and the small town.

This test completely obliterated the tanker. I found half of an end cap of the tank, about 100 pounds of steel, roughly 400-500 yards away from where the tanker used to be. We couldn't find the cab of the truck. Had we used nitro as the fuel... we probably would have destroyed millions of dollars worth of windows. Nitro is sometimes used in shape charges, for example.

ANFO is an amazingly simple and stable explosive with a rather impressive amount of energy. It's actually classified as a blasting agent, lol. If you really want to play with something "safe", ANFO would be on that list. You cannot make it with regular fertilizer anymore I believe, pretty sure they now have to mix in a chemical to make it unusable for ANFO.

[Drew Pojedinec]

I lost my taste for explosions after Bouchard blew up a fuel barge...  my friend quit a week before:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbdkoDhpFAw