Author Topic: Dove Rollers  (Read 17826 times)

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Monzy

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Dove Rollers
« on: August 02, 2013, 08:37:59 PM »
So I've got about 1000 Miles on this build and have broke 2 rocker arms within those miles, 1 being just last week and can only lead back to spring pressure.   These are standard 1" wide Dove rollers on 496lbs open springs.  Too much pressure for these I take it?  They seemed great for 1/4 mile runs at 6300rpm but broke while driving in town normal.  The last one was on the exhaust side causing the intake pushrod to bend also.   I've yet to get a new rocker or pushrod because I'm afraid another is going to break and give me more pain then a $30 rocker or pushrod.    Has anyone experienced extensive damage due to a rocker arm breaking?   I'd upgrade to the T&D or something better but those are big dollars!  Do the T&D even bolt onto an edelbrock head without changes?

jayb

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Re: Dove Rollers
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2013, 10:11:33 PM »
Yep, too much pressure for those rockers.  The aluminum fatigues after a while and will break.  I think T&D makes a less expensive set now that would hold up in your application, and is a bolt-on deal.

I assume with that spring pressure you have roller lifters?  You can definitely damage those by running them after the rocker breaks.  If the roller isn't in contact with the lobe the lobe is smashing up against it at some point, which can damage the roller wheel and needle bearings.  Hate to say it, but I would really recommend replacing the two lifters where you had the failed rockers, to be safe.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Barry_R

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Re: Dove Rollers
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2013, 02:43:49 AM »
Seems to be a "luck of the draw" deal on Dove rocker breakage.  I've had some last forever with higher pressures than yours - and have had some break for no apparent reason with flat tappet pressures.  I have a mix/match collection of rockers here if you need one or two...

And T&D does sell a bolt on set that works well in applications like your's or milder and requires no head machining.  Harland Sharp also sells a very decent bolt on kit.

garyv

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Re: Dove Rollers
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2013, 10:44:25 AM »
You are about a 100lbs over the recommened pressure for those rockers.
no wonder they gave up. 
Not Dove's fault this time.
I believe they list the standards for up to 400lbs open.
anything more than that and you need the wide ones.
garyv

Monzy

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Re: Dove Rollers
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2013, 12:44:44 PM »
I fished the comp roller lifter out from under the intake to check them out and don't see any obvious signs of damage but cant get over the fact I can feel a little something on the one roller but also noticed those needle bearings are not caged and free to roll up on each other and maybe thats all i'm feeling.   Either way i'm on the paranoid side and will replace the damn thing.   Putting it back in with the intake off will be more fun i'm sure!   I almost feel like pulling the intake to check them all but want to replace the PI intake for an RPM at a later date so not ready to take a perfectly sealed intake off unless someone wants to trade!  ;D 

I actually didn't know the standard Dove rockers were only rated for 350+lbs untill recently.   Time to bite the bullet and get those T&D's like I was going to originally when the first one broke.    Hopefully I can get a few dollars for the set of Doves to offset the damage to my pocket.

garyv

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Re: Dove Rollers
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2013, 01:53:32 PM »
Here is an idea that will work just fine.
Keep the Dove setup and just replace the rockers with some Harland Sharps or some Pumpbuilders.
they are around $400.
This will save you a bunch of money instead of replacing everything.
Good Luck no matter what you decide to do.
garyv


Monzy

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Re: Dove Rollers
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2013, 10:01:02 PM »
Would the pushrods be different lengths or cups with T&D or Harland Sharps from what I already have?

 I have to replace one of the smith bros pushrods and looking at their chart for tube ends seems a little hard to determine what I actually have.   What cup and ball do you guys use for Comp solid rollers and Dove rockers?  Might be irrelevant if I have to replace all 16 pushrods when I switch rockers or setups but as far as I know they're all 1.76 ratios so wouldn't that mean they're the same length pushrods unless the mounting is changed.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 10:54:56 PM by Monzy »

jayb

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Re: Dove Rollers
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2013, 09:10:39 AM »
I haven't tried the Harlan Sharps or the bolt-on T&Ds, but they should use the same length pushrods as the Dove rockers if the adjusters are the same. 

Without checking I'm pretty sure that the balls on the adjusters are 3/8" diameter, so you should buy pushrods with that cup size.  On roller lifters, the ball end on the pushrod is usually 5/16", which tends to confuse things...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

funsummer

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Re: Dove Rollers
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2013, 11:12:12 AM »
T&D bolt on rocker gear is 5/16 cups on rockers. I am pretty sure..
or i have the wrong pushrods in my engine  :o
Joel Reynolds
1965 Galaxie LTD 2 door.
1938 Nash

Monzy

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Re: Dove Rollers
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2013, 09:28:06 PM »
Ok so it looks like if I get the T&D setup I'll have to get all new pushrods because they use the 5/16th cup style instead of the 3/8 ball style adjusters.   That's a $200+ dollar expense.

The Harland sharp does use the 3/8 ball style adjuster so I could use my current pushrods but just like dove they're not a true roller rocker unless you upgrade to the 7/8" shaft.   If I kept the stock size shafts I would end up with bronze bushing rockers, not rollers like the 7/8" shaft size offer or T&D have.

I still haven't found out what the Harland Sharps (with bronze bushing) are rated for when it comes to spring pressure.

What bullet do I decide to bite?  T&D and get new pushrods or bronze bushing Harland Sharps with my current end stand/spacers and shafts.   The Harland sharps are a 1" wide body like the Doves, correct?  If not then even my spacers are no good.

Either way I'll be eating Kraft Dinner but for how long all depends on what I get.   :-\   I want to know I can start the Mach up and go for a drive without wondering if a rocker is going to break.  Poor thing just sits there broken most of the time.


« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 09:52:39 PM by Monzy »

hotrodfeguy

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Re: Dove Rollers
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2013, 11:50:30 PM »
I have Harland Sharps myself, and now that they are mentioned at what point are they good for?

Monzy

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Re: Dove Rollers
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2013, 12:23:04 AM »
Checking out to see whats new on the FordFE forum I see more rocker arm failures and some very valid points about why we're even using these aluminum rockers?   Can I just use a set of adjustable stocks with my 496lb springs?  I don't think I've ever read someone breaking a stock rocker.   Look at all the neat things I get to replace by going roller.
 

Barry_R

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Re: Dove Rollers
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2013, 04:34:45 AM »
I'll cross post what I wrote in the other forum regarding rockers.  At least some of it applies to this discussion:

First is that the rocker broke exactly where they do - at the intersection of highest load and thinnest cross section. Whether the failure was from an assembly, machining or a material defect I cannot say.

 That is the weakest area on a rocker and you cannot add much more material there with factory shaft diameters - one of the reasons that a T&D or Erson runs a high quality, but smaller diameter shaft. It is also the reason that I do not particularly care for thick walled bushings in most rebuilt stock or aftermarket rocker arms. The only broken stock arms I ever saw had bushings in them and the failure looked exactly like this one.

 The roller tip does bring a benefit over the rounded to stock rocker. It uncouples the rotating rocker from the vertical motion of the valve - improving guide life and reducing drag & heat at that interface. One need only watch Bill Conley's SOHC high speed valve action videos to see the amount of heat generated by a sliding contact - he literally had smoke coming off the tip of the valve. The benefits here are likely to be pretty small though in the context of a mild street build.

 A bearing at the fulcrum seems to be a good idea. At least it seems that the evil GM LS stuff has been running bearing fulcrum rockers in OE performance applications for several years now. I kind of like the honed ID/bushing at the fulcrum myself - seems to have fewer parts and works OK on wrist pins with few failures. Could be a toss up. Likely a great place for a thinwall bushing on a slightly reduced shaft diameter - or some sort of DLC coating on the rocker's parent material.

 Steel is a better material for rocker arms - no question about that. Its a matter of mass versus physical size versus load capacity versus fatigue strength. But given good design, and good quality readily available aluminum alloys, fatigue failure is something to be concerned with in a .800 lift solid roller application running 8000+ RPM in a 500 mile race and never should be a concern in any normal street application. There are eighty gazillion street cars running down the road on aluminum rockers virtually forever, and at least a few OEM aluminum performance rocker applications that doubtless passed durability testing - so aluminum as a material is certainly good enough for this application.

 The pushed out adjuster might provide the best clue here. As once explained to me by a Federal-Mogul piston engineer, aluminum alloy heat treating is more complex than initially meets the eye. Some processes will deliver a part that is initially "better", but which will degrade over time with heat. Alternate processes will not look as good initially, but will be more stable over time and can actually be a better choice for a given purpose. This is a long way of saying that the material may have looked and tested perfectly good at the point and time of rocker manufacture, but have not really been correctly treated at the extrusion supplier end. If it were possible to check it to the root cause might have been something as simple as a clogged gas jet in an oven somewhere that hurt a single stick of material...

lovehamr

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Re: Dove Rollers
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2013, 07:58:23 AM »
Thanks Barry, I learn new things here all the time.

machoneman

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Re: Dove Rollers
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2013, 08:12:47 AM »
It's too bad that Comp (or another beyond Shelby or PRW) doesn't make a modern SS rocker for the FE as they do with stud mounted engines.  One of the selling points, aside from sheer strength, is the relative lightness of the compact design, something one can't do with aluminum that requires some pretty bulky rockers to withstand high spring pressures.

http://www.compcams.com/information/Products/RockerArms/HiTechStainless.asp
« Last Edit: August 08, 2013, 09:00:33 AM by machoneman »
Bob Maag