Author Topic: thoughts on FITECH EFI  (Read 49803 times)

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jayb

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Re: thoughts on FITECH EFI
« Reply #60 on: April 27, 2016, 10:51:15 AM »
The dual sync Accel distributor has a crank signal output and a cam signal output, right?  Assuming that is the case, then you've got everything you need for a full sequential system.  (Note to others:  You need to go to an MS3X or MS3-Pro, rather than an MS2, for the full sequential version.)

By the way, just a quick aside on full sequential versus batch fire or bank fire.  I have noticed almost no difference in how engines using these different methods run and idle.  There just doesn't seem to be a big difference there.  One potential advantage with the full sequential is that you can tune the timing of the fuel injector squirt to optimize power output or idle charactersitics of each cylinder.  But that is really, really fine tuning the engine.  I tried that on my SOHC and didn't see more than a few HP difference despite varying this all over the place.  On most engines I think full sequential is not really necessary.

You can use the O2 sensor in one of two ways.  The way I do it is called open loop mode, and to do this you run the engine, log the O2 sensor data at different points on the VE map, and then adjust the VE map manually to try to get the A/F ratio where you want it.  The second way is called feedback or closed loop mode.  In the software for the EFI box there is also a Target A/F ratio table.  You can fill this table in with whatever ratios you want.  For example, you might fill in most of the table with 14.7, which is the idea stoichiometric A/F ratio for most driving on stockish engines, and then fill in the part of the table where you have wide open throttle with a richer number like 13.0:1.  Then, if you enable feedback from the O2 sensor, the EFI box will read the O2 sensor output and the actual A/F reading, and adjust the fuel injector pulse to try to match the value in the Target A/F ratio table. 

The problem with closed loop mode is that, as Ross mentioned earlier in the thread, a big cam can fool the O2 sensor into thinking you are leaner or richer than you actually are at less than full throttle.  With your cam, I think running closed loop would be a mistake.  You could run it just at full throttle, and that would work well, but at idle and partial throttle openings it is not going to give you the right tune.  Its not that hard to tune with open loop, so I think I'd go that route if I were you.

Regarding one or two O2 sensors, I usually run 2 just to see if there are differences bank to bank on the engine.  Usually there aren't.  Also I'm pretty sure that the EFI box is set up to go closed loop with only one sensor, and special electronics are required to use more than one.  My friend Scott Clark has an 8 O2 sensor setup, where all the sensor outputs are put on a CAN bus that communicates with the MS3, and each O2 sensor controls its associated fuel injector in closed loop mode.  Basically, it individually tunes each cylinder in real time during the dyno tune or dragstrip run.  Lots of wires, but the result is really cool...
« Last Edit: April 27, 2016, 11:08:45 AM by jayb »
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

JamesonRacing

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Re: thoughts on FITECH EFI
« Reply #61 on: April 27, 2016, 04:14:52 PM »
The dual sync Accel distributor has a crank signal output and a cam signal output, right? 

Correct, the Accel dizzy has a cam signal output as well as a crank signal output.  Reading the MS3 Pro manual, it has SO MANY functions; even providing a PWM signal to a solid-state relay to control cooling fan speed.

So if there's very little benefit in the sequential over bank-fire, is there a benefit using port injection over the throttle body injection?
1966 Fairlane GT, Silver Blue/Black 496/C4 (9.93@133)
1966 Fairlane GT, Nightmist Blue/Black 465/TKO (11.41@122)
1966 Fairlane GTA Conv, Antique Bronze/Black, 418EFI/C6
1966 F250 C/S, Rangoon Red, 445/T19
1965 Falcon Futura 4-door, Turquoise, EF! Z2363/4R70W

jayb

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Re: thoughts on FITECH EFI
« Reply #62 on: April 27, 2016, 05:52:49 PM »
There's a big benefit to port injection, because you are shooting equal amounts of fuel to each cylinder.  With a TBI system the fuel is distributed by the intake manifold, which can easily not be equal from cylinder to cylinder.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Dan859

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Re: thoughts on FITECH EFI
« Reply #63 on: April 28, 2016, 12:12:20 AM »
Hi Jay,
Are you familiar with cross ram fuel injection systems from Morrison Oz?  They have one for the 351 Cleveland.  What are your thoughts on using that with a sequential injection system (I already have the intake adapter)?  I tried to attach a picture, hopefully it works.  It would be for a 482, with a max 6000 RPM.
Dan
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 12:14:22 AM by Dan859 »

JamesonRacing

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Re: thoughts on FITECH EFI
« Reply #64 on: April 28, 2016, 06:12:47 AM »
There's a big benefit to port injection, because you are shooting equal amounts of fuel to each cylinder.  With a TBI system the fuel is distributed by the intake manifold, which can easily not be equal from cylinder to cylinder.

I see what you mean.  Thanks again for your insight and sharing your experience.  Looks like I need to keep collecting parts and getting this EFI going.
1966 Fairlane GT, Silver Blue/Black 496/C4 (9.93@133)
1966 Fairlane GT, Nightmist Blue/Black 465/TKO (11.41@122)
1966 Fairlane GTA Conv, Antique Bronze/Black, 418EFI/C6
1966 F250 C/S, Rangoon Red, 445/T19
1965 Falcon Futura 4-door, Turquoise, EF! Z2363/4R70W

My427stang

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Re: thoughts on FITECH EFI
« Reply #65 on: April 28, 2016, 06:33:38 AM »
Jay, why don't you like the IAT sensor under the throttle body? 

I run mine through the side of the Victor well under the TB, and all Mopar small blocks ran them in the manifold.  I have actually found very little difference in the logged temps there, versus out in the air cleaner once the engine is running.

BTW thanks for the parts list, I may try the MS on my 445 just for fun. Matter of fact, I am almost certain I will

FYI, for those considering closed loop with a big cam, it is doable, especially if you are able to limit the correction for the self learning and manipulate injector timing.  In fact, part of my prep for a new EEC-IV tune is to plug in cam events, with proper injector timing and pulse width, you can clean up things quite a bit.
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

jayb

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Re: thoughts on FITECH EFI
« Reply #66 on: April 28, 2016, 08:14:16 AM »
Ross, I've been told that the Inlet Air Temperature sensors heat up when installed under the throttle plates, and that throws off the tune when the engine is hot.  Probably not a big deal under WOT conditions, but at idle in traffic it can cause a problem.  So, I've just always run them in the air cleaner or somewhere else above the throttle body.  I suppose if you tune for it, it may not matter.  The other issue to consider is that some of the IAT sensors have an open element, and I'm not sure you'd want to expose that to fuel; see the link below.

https://www.diyautotune.com/product/gm-open-element-iat-sensor-with-connector/
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

jayb

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Re: thoughts on FITECH EFI
« Reply #67 on: April 28, 2016, 08:18:29 AM »
Hi Jay,
Are you familiar with cross ram fuel injection systems from Morrison Oz?  They have one for the 351 Cleveland.  What are your thoughts on using that with a sequential injection system (I already have the intake adapter)?  I tried to attach a picture, hopefully it works.  It would be for a 482, with a max 6000 RPM.
Dan

That looks like a cool setup.  How big are the throttle butterflies on that?  My only concern would be that they would be too small for a strong FE.  Bear in mind that with an individual runner intake, you need about 6 times the cfm that you need with a plenum type intake, so the throttle butterflies and runners need to be large enough to support that.  The Hilborn IR setup that I've run on my SOHCs has 2-7/16" throttle butterflies, and they start restricting power over 800 HP, based on my dyno tests.  I think I would consider 2" throttle butterflies and equivalent runners a bare minimum for a 650 HP FE.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

MeanGene

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Re: thoughts on FITECH EFI
« Reply #68 on: April 28, 2016, 12:27:59 PM »
That's always been the worst part of an Algon setup, the throttle bores aren't very big- runs real well on a nice hot rod engine, but won't feed a next-level bullet. My magnesium Kinsler 351C sprint car injectors should be a different story- I figure if they could feed a 9500 rpm 410 Cleveland, they should do OK on a 7500 rpm 505 FE   :P


Dan859

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Re: thoughts on FITECH EFI
« Reply #69 on: April 28, 2016, 10:14:49 PM »
Hi Jay,
Are you familiar with cross ram fuel injection systems from Morrison Oz?  They have one for the 351 Cleveland.  What are your thoughts on using that with a sequential injection system (I already have the intake adapter)?  I tried to attach a picture, hopefully it works.  It would be for a 482, with a max 6000 RPM.
Dan

That looks like a cool setup.  How big are the throttle butterflies on that?  My only concern would be that they would be too small for a strong FE.  Bear in mind that with an individual runner intake, you need about 6 times the cfm that you need with a plenum type intake, so the throttle butterflies and runners need to be large enough to support that.  The Hilborn IR setup that I've run on my SOHCs has 2-7/16" throttle butterflies, and they start restricting power over 800 HP, based on my dyno tests.  I think I would consider 2" throttle butterflies and equivalent runners a bare minimum for a 650 HP FE.

I checked with Morrison, they said the throttle sizes run from 48 to 56 mm, which is like 2-1/4".  Would that likely be enough?   Also, if I were to do a system like that, would I be better to go sequential injection as opposed to batch?

e philpott

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Re: thoughts on FITECH EFI
« Reply #70 on: April 29, 2016, 08:55:04 PM »
Jay , is there anywhere you can sticky your FI parts list ??

jayb

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Re: thoughts on FITECH EFI
« Reply #71 on: April 29, 2016, 11:22:29 PM »
Quote
I checked with Morrison, they said the throttle sizes run from 48 to 56 mm, which is like 2-1/4".  Would that likely be enough?   Also, if I were to do a system like that, would I be better to go sequential injection as opposed to batch?

I'd go with the biggest throttle bore size, that should be enough for a strong engine.  And I think that with an IR setup like that, you probably would be better off going full sequential.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

jayb

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Re: thoughts on FITECH EFI
« Reply #72 on: April 29, 2016, 11:23:58 PM »
Jay , is there anywhere you can sticky your FI parts list ??

I really don't want to sticky it; sometimes those stickys kind of take over the first page of a forum, so I try to avoid them.  But you should be able to right click on the picture, and download it.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

427LX

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Re: thoughts on FITECH EFI
« Reply #73 on: May 01, 2016, 10:13:54 AM »
If I was to go EFI it would most likely be the FiTech for it's simplicity of install including the fuel system and ease of swapping back to carb if there were an issue with the FiTech unit.
Better than a carb if you want to drive in cold weather and or don't really understand or want to tune carbs for best performance.
In my case is it worth 2100 bucks more over what I have which is a pair of nicely tuned Holley 600's..not likely.
But then it really depends on how much 2100 bucks is worth to you vs. available funds to spend on your hot rod.

Just saw an episode of Engine Power TV where they tested the large single quad version of the FiTech on a 511 Mopar wedge build. They were very happy with results at 617 HP and 630 Torque. Then they swapped on the tuned 950 Holley carb and got
637 HP and 640 Torque.
So end result the FiTech is an easy setup to get going for great general street performance with a good tuned carb for serious track and street performance for those willing to tune it.
Off the shelf carb bolt on would most likely not perform as well as the bolt on FiTech.
Most carb issues have to do with off idle and cruise performance which is where you are most of the time.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2016, 10:16:30 AM by 427LX »

My427stang

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Re: thoughts on FITECH EFI
« Reply #74 on: May 01, 2016, 11:43:33 AM »
There are a few guys on Facebook that love the Fitech.  I have been watching there too.

I will add though, always think about where you'll pick up water temp and air intake temp, regardless of the system you use, especially water.  FEs, and Fords in general, do not have the zillion access points to water that a Chebby has, easy to fix with a welded in bung or some other access to pre-thermostat water, but tougher when the intake is already on.

I am modifying my RPM right now for a second water bung, even though I will run a carb for a while and haven't decided if I will use TBI or go SEFI like the Mustang.  In the end though, drilling a hole and welding a bung while it is off is far easier than pulling it down again :)
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch