Long Rod FEs

[ericwevans]

Being my first post, at the bottom I'll provide a little bit of info about me, but I'll start with the actual reason for the post first.   

So I'm looking at the distinct possibility of building a long rod FE (332, 352, 360) and wanted to know if anyone on the forum has any experience with these.  I'm already aware that aftermarket rods are non-existent, and that pistons can be a problem as well.  I intend to use the stock rods with ARP bolts which limits my issue to pistons.  So has anyone out there built one of these?  Any idea how much RPM the rods can handle on a 3.5" stroke?  Just looking for some insight from experience.   

As for me (and this will probably answer the question as to why this idiot is shooting himself in the foot and building a long rod engine) I have been on and off toying with cars and motorcycles for the better part of 30 years but life always got in the way of the hobby.  I fell in love with the FE sound after watching Bullitt as a kid and ever since then I wanted one.  It was then I would hear my dad talk about street racing his 1960 Starliner with the solid lifter 352 in it and the hook was set.  That has set me up with a love of the short strokers.  I also am a very build it rather than buy it guy and prefer to keep external aftermarket parts confined to the intake manifold (Jay, expect an e-mail to put me on a list for an intake manifold adapter  ) and headers and use stock castings for the heads and block.  I learned of Jay and this site from Hot Rod Drag Week on YouTube (which I just found and binge watched about 6 months ago) and hope to have my '65 F-100 there for 2018 (wish I could make 2017 but I know I won't have the cage in it by then).

That's it for now, look forward to getting to know y'all!!!

-Eric

[Drew Pojedinec]

Wade built a long rod 390 if I recall.
I don't think it worked as well as he wanted.  I'll try to flag him down and send him over here.

[ericwevans]

Just to clarify, long rod being one of the 6.54" con rod engines (332/352/360) rather than the more common 6.488" engines (390/406/410/427/428)

-Eric

[My427stang]

Eric,

I have built a total of one 6.54 inch performance engines, it was a dual quad CJ-headed 410 with some heavy pistons we shaved.  it did great.  I have done some 5500-5700 rpm 360s, and they ran OK, but in their defense I never spent much on heads on those

However, IMHO, a longer rod doesn't do any better than any other length rod and with the slightly weaker rod, I'd likely not do it again.  That being said, if I WERE to it again, I'd go zero deck with custom Racetecs or Diamonds for a real light piston so the rod and crank had a little less stress on it and still have a good valve relief then cam and compression to match use. 

I am a believer that despite some minor dwell differences, in the end, a rod just connects the piston to the crank and length changes don't help much.

Now, if you just want a hot 360, long rod and cast crank longevity should be pretty good up to 6000 rpm with a good balance and light pistons, after that, the rods start to concern me first.

Of course, as with any FE, and maybe any engine, the power is in the combo, and it isn't cheap to make a small cid FE make hero power

[Drew Pojedinec]

http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/thread/1319247428/Excitement!+new+long-rod+390+going+together

http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/thread/1325565922

Some links of interest ^

I contacted Wade, hopefully he'll stop by.  If I remember he had some detonation issues and wasn't ever really satisfied with the engine.

Anyway, good luck,
Dp

[ericwevans]

Thanks for the quick info Ross.  The rod coming apart is my obvious concern too.  My end goal is a 6500 RPM shift point so I was hoping to hear that someone else had done it.     I know in the 60's the failure points tended to be the bolts so was hoping the upgrade to ARP fastners would buy me something.  But all 6.54 rods have 50 years on them now so that is a concern.  The only reason for retaining the long rod is so I don't have to replace the pistons in my short block, otherwise I'm going to need more compression distance on the pistons.  I may have found an off the shelf option for that though, but I need to go find it again.

[ericwevans]

Just finished reading Wade's posts, thanks Drew.  Looks like his impression on the bolt being the weak link is the same one I've had.  In those posts he doesn't go past the initial drives so not sure how he liked it.  Interested in how hard he has pushed it and if the rods survived.

[My427stang]

So, both Brent Lykins and Wes Adams can comment on a long rod 360 build for high rpm use, although I do not think the engine I am thinking about was built yet

However, that wasn't a 6.54 rod, in their case they used an aftermarket BBC rod.  The 6.70 BBC rod with a worked crank and custom pistons should be very strong, and 6.70 BBC rods, as well as custom pistons are pretty cheap now.  In that case, the money would be in the crank, but for 6500 rpm, you likely don't need a lot

[thatdarncat]

Eric, you should read this thread this on the other FE Forum from 2009 about Bill Heinson's 352 powered Super Stock Galaxie, here's a link:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/thread/1244492706

Bill did very well with that car and is a hero to the 352 guys lol. Another racer who did well with a record holding 352 Galaxie in Super Stock was Kip Martin. Kip has sadly passed away, but I think Blair Patrick on this site owns that car today. Maybe Blair will join the conversation.

You will notice reading that thread that Bill did some extra prep to those stock rods. I'd have to look back in an old NHRA rule book to know what was legal back then, you may have only been allowed stock rods. Now days NHRA allows accepted aftermarket rods, but still requires the stock length for the engine and they must be within a NHRA published minimum weight tolerance. Keep in mind your stock rods are now about 25+ years older than the rods Bill was running.

[thatdarncat]

Here's a link to an earlier 2002 discussion with Bill Heinson about his 352 Super Stock Galaxie.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/thread/1018049075/History-+Super+Stock+352

[ericwevans]

Thanks Kevin!  I read all Bill's posts, have to go back and read everything else when I'm not "working"  .  Does make me feel like I'm not too crazy to go this route.    

[jayb]

Eric, welcome to the board and I hope you enjoy the book I just sent you    The engine sounds like an interesting project and I wholeheartedly agree that ARP rod bolts will improve the durability of the stock rods.  But be aware that every now and then, a 50 year old stock rod will just let go, and then you've got a bunch of scrap parts on your hands.  I like Ross's suggestion of using some inexpensive aftermarket 6.700" big block Chev rods and a turned down stock crank.  You would have an even longer rod motor, get the benefits of new rods and bolts, and also the benefits of the wider BBC rod bearing.  Lots of advantages to that approach.

By the way, I no longer have a list for the intake adapters, I keep the castings in stock and machine them as customers ask for them.  Lead times on them are usually a couple weeks - Jay

[ericwevans]

Hey Jay, can't wait to get the book!  I'll have to see what machining the crank will cost around here and consider the BBC rod option.  Of course if I do that, then I'll want to spin it harder!     So not sure my reliability will go up.   

[machoneman]

Long rod= total waste of time.

When David Reher & Buddy Morrison long ago said it was way, way down the list....they weren't kidding. And for fellows who built tons of long rod 1.9-1 SBC's that dominated the scene in Comp, Super Comp, SS and other classes for years, they do know of what they speak.

http://rehermorrison.com/tech-talk-10-by-the-book/

http://rehermorrison.com/tech-talk-85-how-not-to-build-a-racing-engine/

As David says, spend your bucks on head flow, intake flow, exhaust flow and pretty much everything but long rods. 

[plovett]

My opinion is that the difference between a 6.54" rod and a 6.49" rod will not be measurable in any significant functional way. 

If you compare a 7" rod and a 6" rod, then maybe.

I do like one-off engines and encourage you to make one if you want to.   Keep in mind that custom pistons are not much more expensive than high quality off-the-shelf pistons these days.  So that is not an issue, in my opinion. 

paulie