FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: Thumperbird on January 23, 2022, 02:28:44 PM
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Well I know this collective audience has seen it all and this one is probably easy for some of you.
Found a piece of metal on the end of my magnetic oil plug upon oil change, about .1" wide by .5" long, probably 3 to 5 thou. thick. Found another much smaller piece in the filter after cutting it open, a little very fine metallic particulate present on filter as well I think.Poked a magent up in the pan, nothing else big came out but did not pull pan.
What am I looking at here, bearing going out or ? Run it and see how it goes this next summer or that is crazy tear it down now sort of deal? Oil pressure has been fine and was running well last summer, or at least I thought so. Had switched to 10w-40 synthetic last year, hmm.
Thanks.
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I know it is a pain but I would pull the pan and check the bearings. Too expensive to chance it and then the whole motor has to come out and apart.
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Maybe a sliver of cam bearing? Just had a cam bearing problem myself oil pressure was fine. I took mine out not saying you have to but it might be something simple right now.
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If it was stuck to the magnet, the only part of the bearing it could be is from the metal backing. The lead and babbit isn't magnetic. If you had particles in the filter, I'd definitely be checking things out. See if the particles are magnetic also. Lot's of places it could come from, but if that piece is from a bearing, that's not good. Might also try checking your distributor gear and rocker system. You can do that without tearing the engine apart. Try the easy stuff first.
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Wide cam bearings used?
Could possibly cause an issue.
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Tear is down. You have glitter in your oil filter. Unless you have installed a full flow filtering system, that glitter has moved through the engine and will continue to do so as the engine eats itself. The glitter is probably the cam. But it doesn't matter. This engine is finished for now.
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That could have been in there a long time and just now found its way to the magnet. a piece of flashing, who knows. Rather than panic, I would change the oil and drive it 500 miles and then cut open the filter and have a look. But that's just me.
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Unfortunately, I think you need to answer which is worse: The hassle of pulling/dismantling the engine? Or paying for a replacement should it lunch itself? Sure, do the easy stuff first, and you COULD get lucky. But I suspect you already realize this could be serious trouble.
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I've been scratching my head over what that piece in the picture could be. If you were losing a main or rod bearing, those have a copper backing material that will flake off and get into the oil; you would have seen those copper flakes when you cut open the oil filter. Since you didn't see those, I don't think it's mains or rods, but that piece could have come off the edge of a cam bearing. I had a cam bearing failure once where the bearing walked forward out of the bore and started hitting one of the lifters. It eventually sheared some pieces off, that kind of looked like the one in the picture.
Really tough to diagnose something like that without tearing down the engine...
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Yeah, took a closer look at the filter today, plenty metallic particulate present, you could see a couple drops of oil extracted from the filter migrate towards the magnet, crap.
Did not see copper but will take a closer look for that, was focusing on shiny and magnetic.
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Yeah, sounds like a cam issue. >:(
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Don't know what that is, but it looks like it saw some heat before it broke free.
Work your way through it - pan, skirts, bearings, valvetrain...
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All the cam bearings melted to some degree, #2 cam bearing was spun and discovered the oil gallery plug behind the distributor was missing. Teardown was for retrieving pieces of a broken rocker arm, had no idea the cam was making a heroic effort to leave. Glitter in the oil filter. Probably should not have limped home after the rocker broke, but can't tell if the two events were related. Good luck.
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Are you running drip and valley tins?
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Yes, it does look like it saw some heat, blued and cracked up for sure.
No, not running drip or valley tins, Harland Sharp rockers, Edelbrock heads with RPM air gap intake, hydraulic rollers.
Had valve covers off recently, looked spotless there, no hints of an issue. of course I put them and carbs back on before the discovery, oh well.
Will start with the pan and go from there I guess.
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Ok so first up is lots of crank end play, have not gotten engine out yet but guessing it is between .05 andd .1.
I know torque convertor had lots of forward and back shaft play before I bolted it up so I don't suspect an issue there but will check as I disconnect trans before pulling motor. If lots of play then ballooning wouldn't be an issue correct?
What I am wondering is what else could cause thrust bearing wear? Want to keep my eyes peeled as I disassemble and not miss something. My biggest fear here is getting the thing all tore down and not knowing WHY this or that happened.
I also have a worn brass gear on the distributor, gotta refresh myself on that, I intentionally installed it after doing what I thought was proper homework at the time but recent reading suggests it should not have been brass. MSD distributor on a Lykins custom cam.
More to come but any thoughts on causes for serious thrust bearing wear other than trans/convertor related?
That may still be it but just curious what to look for as I go here.
Thanks
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Just curious if you have a factory Ford crankshaft. I have never had a thrust issue with an OE crank, but I know a few guys who have had offshore aftermarket cranks eat up the thrust bearings, most likely do to poor machining.
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Scat cast I think was not super spendy. This is a 445 with H beam rods, Federal Mogul bearings.
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A poorly machined thrust surface on the crank is certainly a possibility.
It will be interesting to look at.
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How long are your flexplate/flywheel bolts?
Usually when I hear of guys with thrust bearing issues, it's either a converter issue, clutch issue, or the flywheel/flexplate bolts were too long. I've seen many a block come in with a grooved rear cap.
I have not had any thrust surface issues with Scat cranks.
You need a steel distributor gear. Bronze gears are junk if you plan to put any miles on them.
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I know I was aware of flywheel bolt length when I assembled, can't get eyes on that until I seperate trans..
(only motor is coming out at this point and have not gotten there yet)
I did try and measure torque convertor clearance, rough estimate is .160" of convertor travel before it bottoms out in trans when crank is pulled all the way forward and .1" of travel when crank is all the way back, this is indicaiting roughly a 60/70 thou. crank runout, hard to get a great # while in car. Of course no way to know which side is worn yet so not sure what nominal crank posiiton is wrt the convertor clearance.
In the worst case crank all the way back scenario is that .1" enough torque convertor clearance? I am guessing I do run a lot of trans pressure, harding shifting C6 from Broader, have made probably 50 to 75 informal 1/8 miles with it, redlinging at ~5600 to 6000 rpm.
For now, is there anything else I can/should observe/measure before I seperate motor from trans?
Maybe I'll try and lift motor just enough to get pan off while still in vehicle so I can get a bottom side view.
Thanks.
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Nominally you should want about 1/8" movement between the converter and the flex plate. If the crank is moving - yea, you've got a thrust issue. The spec is usually .008 so any real movement in the crank is not good. I've had a stock 351C crank do that but I suspect it was some sort of debris that go into the thrust area. The crank was modified for neutral balance and we might have missed something on the thrust surface caused by welding in heavy metal slugs. At any rate, it "machined" a solid groove in the crank thrust surface and allowed better than .100 crank end play. I found out because it got bad enough to slow the engine on launch - the crank counterweights were rubbing the block bulkheads. Other than that, the engine ran fine LOL. I still have the crank, mostly because it's got probably $400 in metal still in it.
The only other time I've seem a sliver of metal like that is when some valve spring shims got eaten up. Apparently had some non-hardened shims that got in my spares and they don't last long under a working performance spring. Lots of little strips of metal in the pan. Like to never figured out what was going on since most of the bad shims had already been shredded.
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The Minimum crank thrust play on an FE is .010.
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The Minimum crank thrust play on an FE is .010.
I would not consider that to be the minimum, more like the maximum. .010" is at the very top end of what I would like to see on crank thrust. I generally like to see about .005" when I check it.
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The fun begins. Pictures will tell most of the story but still need some help on root cause.
Trans side of main thrust bearing is toast, worn into what I suspect is a steel backing material.
This looks to be the source of that shaved off piece of steel, see image for similar piece of flash still stuck to bearing.
Unfortunately there is a deep groove worn into that side of crank thrust surface. Is this crank toast?
No evidence of flywheel bolts touching back side of engine but torque converter to flywheel interface may be where my problem lies. It looks like flywheel bolt heads bottomed out on center part of converter so there was no contact between flywheel and converter on the raised ring or at the outer ears of converter. This is where I need the collective experience here to guide me. I feel like the center of the converter is most prone to ballooning and expansion so since I did not have any clearance there even thoough I had overall converter movement/clearance installed, say .1" that is not enough in this condition? Wondering if I was not supposed to use the doubler ring when installing afttermarket flywheel? The doubler thickness is surely enough to have caused flywheel bolt heads to protrude enough on converter side to bottom out in center before perimeter was seated. Have not check all bearings yet, obviously the motor had trash in it, what I can see of cylinder walls looks good so far, main bearing of course shows some wear as that is where teh concentration of debris would have been, more to come on that front. What do you all think?
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More images
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Maybe I am seeing it wrong, but it kinda looks like the flexplate reinforcing ring is installed between the crankshaft and flexplate, is that correct? It should be on the transmission side of the flexplate, as a spreader, and not a spacer. The flexplate to crank bolt heads were certainly making contact with the convertor, which would cause the damage. Is it a factory flexplate?
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Ring is on trans side, you are looking at flywheel and ring from trans side so not a spacer between crank and flywheel, just a doubler but that doubling pushes bolts farther back and they contact center of converter. The indent if you will in flex plate is towards trans as well which I think is proper. Aftermarket flex plate, do not recall manuf..
Fyi, this is a C6 in a 65, 65's normally had green dot trans, 66 tbirds did have c6 though, so new trans, converter, and flex plate combination tied to scat crank.
If converter is bolted hard to flywheel anyways, just makes contact in different area, looking to understand dynamics of the failure, this setup was just worse case for being able to handle any balloning or something else or ?
Is this where a flex plate gets its name? converter pushes on outer diameter of plate, plate absorbs some of that by deflecting and less load on crank then or ?
Sorry for miilion questions, trying to learn and not make same mistake twice.
Thanks.
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Since the trans side of the thrust bearing is worn, something is pushing the crankshaft forward. I think you have a converter problem. I've had had at least a half dozen converters that required spacers on the bolts or studs between the flexplate and the converter, in order to have the converter clear properly. You install the converter, check to see that it has endplay, then put in the bolts and when you tighten them, it draws the flexplate up to the converter, basically bending it all the way around so that it bolts all the way on. The trick is to make sure that before the bolts are installed, the converter can be pushed all the way to the flexplate, so that there is no gap between the converter and the flexplate at the mounting bolt locations. If you see any little gap there, spacers around the converter bolts are going to be required.
To be honest I'm not sure how that would result in forward pressure on the crank, but it certainly isn't right. The witness marks of the crank bolts on the converter pretty much tell the tale of contact.
If I recall correctly you are in the Minneapolis area. Take your crank down to Crankshaft Supply in Minneapolis; they can weld it and repair the thrust surface.
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Since you say that this is a 65 that had a CruiseOMatic, did you instal the steel "block plate" that gets sandwiched between the engine and the transmission, behind the flexplate? If not, the C6 would be located the thickness of the plate, further towards the engine than it should be. Also, being an aftermarket crank, and torque convertor, did you test fit the convertor into the crank, to confirm that the convertor snout had enough clearance in the pilot hole of the crank? Might be interesting to measure the distance between the stud base flanges, and the front of the convertor body, between a stock convertor, and the aftermarket unit.
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Just to be absolutely correct, the proper label for Ford products is, 'flywheel.' Generic motors may have used 'flex-plate' but at FoMoCo, they were called flywheels from the time the individual components were assembled. The ring gear was put on the stamping by 'Electron-Beam-Welding.' I, at one time, spent the better part of a year standing within a few feet of where it all happened. :)
KS
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Just to be absolutely correct, the proper label for Ford products is, 'flywheel.' Generic motors may have used 'flex-plate' but at FoMoCo, they were called flywheels from the time the individual components were assembled. The ring gear was put on the stamping by 'Electron-Beam-Welding.' I, at one time, spent the better part of a year standing within a few feet of where it all happened. :)
KS
In Australia an Automatic gearbox car use's a flexplate and a manual gearbox use's a flywheel
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Just to be absolutely correct, the proper label for Ford products is, 'flywheel.' Generic motors may have used 'flex-plate' but at FoMoCo, they were called flywheels from the time the individual components were assembled. The ring gear was put on the stamping by 'Electron-Beam-Welding.' I, at one time, spent the better part of a year standing within a few feet of where it all happened. :)
KS
In Australia an Automatic gearbox car use's a flexplate and a manual gearbox use's a flywheel
That's the naming convention standard for pretty much everywhere: automatic = flexplate, manual = flywheel.
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Just to be absolutely correct, the proper label for Ford products is, 'flywheel.' Generic motors may have used 'flex-plate' but at FoMoCo, they were called flywheels from the time the individual components were assembled. The ring gear was put on the stamping by 'Electron-Beam-Welding.' I, at one time, spent the better part of a year standing within a few feet of where it all happened. :)
KS
In Australia an Automatic gearbox car use's a flexplate and a manual gearbox use's a flywheel
That's the naming convention standard for pretty much everywhere: automatic = flexplate, manual = flywheel.
Yep! GM and Chrysler do the same.
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Jay thanks for the local lead on crank repair, much appreciated!
Yes I used the sheet metal like plate between engine and trans..
Some research suggests the "flexplate" actually does flex when the converter pushes forward absorbing some, maybe a lot? of the thrust load if of course it is mounted by the ears, so with flexplate bolts bottomed out in the center of converter this behavior is 100% gone. My guess is my trans pressure is high as well so that does not help matters as I suspect a higher than normal constant thrust load. I installed an external trans cooler in series with radiator cooler 2 years ago, sounds like that can mess with trans pressure as well.
It looks the Performance Automatic flex plate is a little thicker than stock and of course not a stock converter anyways so with stock doubler ring it all adds up the the interference.
I am thinking of running without the doubler, maybe some hardened steel washers that are more thin than doubler and might take a little off the bolt heads to get say 1/8" of clearance at flexplate bolt head to converter face. Will probaly need shorter bolts anyways if I use more thin washers instead of doubler. Then of course make sure converter snout is free and clear within crank pilot for at least that 1/8".
From there more care setting it up to make sure converter is sitting .125" out from bottomed out in trans and space accordingly after that.
Can't believe I missed this and still wish I had more concrete info. on the mechanics at play here.
Thanks everyone.
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Just to be absolutely correct, the proper label for Ford products is, 'flywheel.' Generic motors may have used 'flex-plate' but at FoMoCo, they were called flywheels from the time the individual components were assembled. The ring gear was put on the stamping by 'Electron-Beam-Welding.' I, at one time, spent the better part of a year standing within a few feet of where it all happened. :)
KS
In Australia an Automatic gearbox car use's a flexplate and a manual gearbox use's a flywheel
That's the naming convention standard for pretty much everywhere: automatic = flexplate, manual = flywheel.
Yep! GM and Chrysler do the same.
i'm simply saying that at T&C Livonia, where they were designed and built in the first place, they were never known as "Flexplates". They were only ever called "flywheels". ;)
KS
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If a converter expands (balloons) it doesn't go back. You may want to check that b4 you put it all back together.
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Not having much if any experience in evaluating bearing and cylinder surfaces what do you all think about what you see here?
There are some minor scratches on cylinder walls, there is only one (shown in picture) where I can barely catch the edge with a finger nail, looks worse in image than it is I think.
All others are not detectable by hand, Can I just clean this all up and run with new bearings or ?
Cam bearings look like new to me, rods also look good to me but will replace rods and mains for good measure.
I know it is hard to tell in images but everything is super smooth save that one scratch, while there is obviously something there on most surfaces I can not feel it in all other cases.
Thanks again for all of the help, will try and post rod bearing pictures tonight.
By the way engine has ~3k miles on it, some of them pretty hard.