Author Topic: How much seat run out after a typical valve job?  (Read 2291 times)

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427LX

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How much seat run out after a typical valve job?
« on: August 20, 2019, 08:05:47 AM »
And do most shops use stones or profile seat cutters today?

Long story on my brothers 20 yr and going engine refresh.
He talked to me for almost 2 hours on the crappy valve job he got done 49 yrs. ago!!! :o :o.

Yes he bought a seat run out gage to analyze his cylinder heads which have about less than 1000 miles since rebuild 49 yrs. ago!! .002-.008 run out depending on which seat you check on the cast iron head seats.


jayb

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Re: How much seat run out after a typical valve job?
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2019, 08:47:42 AM »
My guy only uses cutters, and he measures the runout with a dial gauge that indexes on the valve guide.  He would never let a seat out of his shop with more than .001" runout.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Falcon67

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Re: How much seat run out after a typical valve job?
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2019, 10:21:51 AM »
The only guys around here that do performance valve jobs use cutters.  .001 would be the outside worst on those head benches using the Goodson tools IMHO. 

turbohunter

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Re: How much seat run out after a typical valve job?
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2019, 02:17:33 PM »
I’m not proud. Will one of you gents explain seat runout.
Marc
'61 F100 292Y
'66 Mustang Injected 428
'66 Q code Country Squire wagon


chilly460

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Re: How much seat run out after a typical valve job?
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2019, 05:47:11 PM »
It’s concentricity to the valve guide.  If the seat is showing runout, one side of the seat will be a different distance from the center of the guide from the distance to the other side of the seat.  If the valve guide isn’t centered in the seat, when the valve hits the seat, it’s slightly side loading the valve and can wear the guide or I supposed in bad cases break a valve.  My Edelbrock showed daylight between the valve and seat, and can’t recall the amount but were far enough out that you could see the valve move sideways as it seated

turbohunter

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Re: How much seat run out after a typical valve job?
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2019, 06:33:13 PM »
Gracias amigo.
Marc
'61 F100 292Y
'66 Mustang Injected 428
'66 Q code Country Squire wagon


427LX

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Re: How much seat run out after a typical valve job?
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2019, 07:50:39 PM »
Now  regarding some aluminum heads I have heard that the valve seat insert has the seat angles already machined in place
and if installed not fully squared up will result in run out with the valve guide.

CaptCobrajet

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Re: How much seat run out after a typical valve job?
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2019, 09:20:25 PM »
Okay.  Seat concentricity is a measure of runout.  There is also vertical runout, which you can have even if the seat appears to be "round".  49 years ago, the vast majority of valve seat work was done with stones.  It is easy to end up with all kinds of issues with stones.  With that said, it is also possible to do a pretty good valvejob with stones, if you watch your step.  Pilots, holders, and stone dressers all must be in very good shape to get there, as well as a proper method for holding and applying the seat grinder to the work.  It is almost impossible to make a repeatable multi-angle valvejob with stones, although one can get close enough that you might not see a measureable difference on a flow bench. 

My thought is that a person learning should be required to create a nice multi-angle valvejob with stones, regardless of the flow quality, just to understand the principals......much like learning to add and subtract before you get a calculator, or these days.....a compooter. 

I have a plethora of stones, and a good working old Sioux seat grinder.  I use it when I am exploring new ideas for valve angles and seat widths, as well as angles and widths of what I put above and below the sealing seat angle.  I can create any width and angle I want, and then if I see something I like, it is at that point I have a cutter made like my creation.  In my opinion, that is the best use of the stones in this day and time.

Back on the question of "runout".  There is more than one way to get an acceptable result, but regardless of the machine, the pilots, holders, and cutters MUST BE in great shape.  Sharp and no slack!!  Some Newen machines have no pilot, but not many of those around.  If your tooling has slack......the bigger the valve, the worse the turn quality gets.
At my shop, we finish cut the seats until there is zero runout in a .001 increment dial indicator.  I would say we might have up to a half thou sometimes in reality, but you can't measure it.  The "lap" does not lie!  We lap everything that leaves here.  If it doesn't lap, it doesn't leave!!  If you get more than about .002 vertical runout, you will have trouble lapping it.  The .0008 to .0018 stem clearance you should have, depending on application, can't absorb the runout when it gets much more than .001.  Some coarse lapping compounds can also fool you and mark a seat when a light grit like a .600 will tell the tale.  I would say the most common errors are sloppy or flexing pilots, and dull cutters.  When a cutter gets dull, it will follow existing terrain rather than cutting a new, flat path.

I say you should have zero on your guage in order to end up +/- .0005, which is the method we use.  It takes a while....shops that do $100 valve jobs will not take that time.  If they do, the doors will close fairly quickly.

Two things that must be right for success are a top notch valvejob, and a top notch hone job.  Lots of things matter in an engine.  Some things will show themselves if wrong, like bearing clearance.  Bad head work and honing is like hepititas for an engine.  It will live with it......it just won't be healthy.  Rant over......

About the runout guage.....it MUST be straight and tight in the guide to give good info.  If it moves at all, you will see "runout".  Just be sure you see what you think you see in that regard.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 09:25:57 PM by CaptCobrajet »
Blair Patrick

Falcon67

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Re: How much seat run out after a typical valve job?
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2019, 12:25:17 PM »
As an unskilled machine owner with two lathes and a mill - a dull tool will tear up stuff so fast it's not funny.  And just for extra fun maybe throw the item across the room.  And as an old QA guy, don't forget that your measuring tools need to be calibrated against a known standard so you can trust your readings.  The rule of thumb, as I recall, was 10x resolution.  If you want to measure to the .001, you calibrate against a something accurate to at least .0001. 

>My thought is that a person learning should be required to create a nice multi-angle valvejob with stones, regardless of the flow quality, just to understand the
>principals......much like learning to add and subtract before you get a calculator, or these days.....a compooter. 

As a "computer guy" I would like to see all first year CS students be forced to use line editors (edit one single line of a program or text file at a time, unlike what I'm using right now) running from the system prompt and small green screen monitors.  A way to not take the current level of sophistication for granted as you gain experience. 

427LX

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Re: How much seat run out after a typical valve job?
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2019, 07:50:27 PM »
Thanks for all your input!   

Like I said he's been fiddling around with this rebuild project for years and if he continues at same pace...somebody else will be putting this engine together along with the car it goes in. He's 70 and I'm 65.
The engine by the way has round head chambers and the valves point towards each other.

338Raptor

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Re: How much seat run out after a typical valve job?
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2019, 08:20:22 PM »
What car is he planning to install the engine in?
ERA 427SC Cobra: Iron ‘67 625hp 482” SOHC, TKX 5 speed, TrueTrac 3.31 IRS, Magnesium Halibrands, Avon CR6ZZ tires. 

1969 Shelby GT350, 4 speed.

1967 Mustang Fastback: Close ratio T56 Magnum, Fab-9, Wilwood superlite brakes, Torque arm rear suspension, TCI-IFS with shock tower delete, (Coming soon, FE motor TBD)

1970 F250 4x4 Mud Truck, 557 BBF, as cast P51 heads, 900 hp @6700rpm, 801 tq, Q16, C6.

2012 Cobra Jet Mustang factory drag car, 5.4 liter 4.0 Whipple, 970 RWHP.

1964 Galaxie 500XL, 35 spline 3.70 Strange S-Trac, 6R80, (Coming soon: Pond Aluminum 525 SOHC, 800hp)

427LX

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Re: How much seat run out after a typical valve job?
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2019, 09:02:16 PM »
What car is he planning to install the engine in?

Well it's not a Ford...

1970 Hemicuda.

I wanted to get some info on good valve jobs from the pros here!

Falcon67

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Re: How much seat run out after a typical valve job?
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2019, 09:06:27 AM »
Nomnomnomnom   :P