Author Topic: Looking For High End Crank Balancing In States Surrounding Iowa  (Read 3665 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

My427stang

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3941
    • View Profile
Re: Looking For High End Crank Balancing In States Surrounding Iowa
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2023, 11:17:03 PM »
Just chiming in a again, if dying to try it, I have an old school shop in Omaha that does it but as stated don't expect lightening the crank to solve the heavy metal requirement.  Small shop, sharp guy, but wouldn't call it high end, just a good old machinist

Counter-weights "counter the weight" and are designed for a range of expected recip/rotating parts.  The fact that FEs need more weight on a minimum of one CW and on heavy assemblies 2, means there isn't enough there now. 

However, if you change the request to wanting the lightest possible crank in general, then balance it, there may be some options

Shoot for the lightest rod and piston combo suitable for use, and then go from there
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

Mr Woodys Garage

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 45
    • View Profile
Re: Looking For High End Crank Balancing In States Surrounding Iowa
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2023, 01:35:48 AM »
I Truly Appreciate The Replies And Information I Am Getting On This Question. While I'm Waiting On A Call From Someone I Hope Can Do The Balance On This Project, It Looks Like Help Might Also Be Just A Couple Hours Drive West To Nebraska. This Build Is A Last Hurrah For Me, And Am Trying To Build It The Very Best That I Can, Thanks To All For Bearing With Me While I Get This Important Operation Sorted Out. I Am Aware Of And Have Had To Buy "Heavy Metal" In Engines I Have Built Over The Years, It Was Just A "Give It To The Machine Shop, And It Comes Back, You Pay For It And Move On." This Time, I'm Playing With A Lot More Expensive Crank, Rods And Pistons, As Well As A Pretty Decent Fully Girdled S Scratch 428 Block That I Don't Want To Throw Pieces Out Of When Winding It Up. Yes, Its Equipped With A 3 Qt Accumulator Incorporated Into The Oiling System. Its Going In My 63.5 Galaxie, With A Big In/Big Out  Close Ratio "Nascar" Toploader. Im Running 4:30 Gears With 28" Tall Rear Tires. I've Pony'd Up/Saved Up For A Good Set Of Trick Flow Heads, An Expertly Ported And Matched To The Heads Victor EFI Intake,And A Fairly Expensive Solid Roller Setup With Supporting Conical Springs Etc. It Will Turn A Lot Of RPM Just Driving It Normally, Let Alone What Im Wanting To Do With It On A Few Trips To The Drag Strip. So, Balance Is A VERY Important Consideration/Issue To Me In In This Build.
   Anyway, According To Summit Racing, Where The Scat Cranks Are Listed, This Forged Steel 4.25 Stroke Crank Is 6 Pounds Heavier Than The Same Stroke Cast Scat Crank. This Is Probably Why A Lot Of The Engine Builds I See With The Forged Cranks Have Holes So Big And Deep In Them That You Could Rent Them Out As Studio Apartments. I'm Sure, That "Operator Experience", Cost, And "Brand Loyalty" Has A Lot To Do With It As Well,. While It Obviously Works, I'm Hoping To Improve On Common Practice.. So, Where Does This 6 Pounds Of Metal Hide Out At? Given Same Rods And Pistons, There Would Surely Be A Big Difference In The Amount Of "Heavy Metal" Needed Between The 2 Cranks. Again, I'm Asking, Because I Do Not Know. If I Could Lose 6 Pounds Of Mass/Weight Off The Crank, (Or At Least Not Have To Add Any To It) The Power Output, Smoothness At Peak RPM, And Lifespan Of All The Rotating And Reciprocating Parts Would Surely Be Noticeable. With The Advances In Balancing Equipment, And Especially The Improvements In Rods, Pistons, Cams And Heads, Making Double The Original Output Of An FE Realistically Obtainable I'm Looking For The Best Possible Combination I Can Get. The Rods Are Forged Molnar H Beams Brent Was Able To Get Ahold Of For Me, And The Pistons Are Mahle Powerpack 1m 1m 2m Forged With 18cc (?) Dish. They Shouldn't Be Extremely Heavy Compared To Stuff That Was Commonly Used 10 Years Ago. So, If You Were Building It For Yourself, With Todays Technology/Options Available, And A Reasonable Budget, (If There Is Such A Thing), Which Route Would You Take/How Would You Do It?  Thanks Again For The Help, Opinions, Refferrals, And Discussion On This.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2023, 02:30:06 AM by Mr Woodys Garage »

blykins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4828
    • View Profile
    • Lykins Motorsports
Re: Looking For High End Crank Balancing In States Surrounding Iowa
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2023, 04:38:42 AM »
I think you're a little confused about what does what with regard to balancing these crankshafts.

First of all, the steel crank is heavier because it's steel.  There's nothing you can do about that.  Just like a factory $, 361, or 391 crank is heavier than a regular 352/390 crank, the modern steel cranks are heavier than the cast ones. 

*****If you try to cut 6 lbs off of this crankshaft by just turning down the counterweights, you will most likely open a balancing can of worms**** and there's a very good chance that you will spend literally thousands of dollars to correct it.   Lightweight cranks are made by removing metal in other spots, by cutting away the flywheel flange, gun drilling the mains, shaping the counterweights, etc. 

If this were a crankshaft that required many, many holes to be drilled in the counterweights to balance it, I could understand the desire to cut the counterweights down.  But this is not one of those cases!  In order to balance this crankshaft, you may have to ADD METAL TO IT, depending on the bobweight.   Cutting the counterweights down will put you in a spot (especially if you're trying to shed multiple pounds) that you will have to add EVEN MORE METAL TO IT.  So not only will your balance bill be $$$$$$$ but you will have your crankshaft swiss-cheesed in another direction.

In addition to all of that, if it's balanced, it's balanced.  A crankshaft that has had the counterweights turned down to balance it is not any more balanced than a crankshaft that has had holes drilled or metal added.   I think in your mind you have an illusion that this is "the better" way of doing things.  It's not. 

If I were doing this, I would do it the way I do all of them.....choose quality and lightweight parts for the rods and pistons, then just simply balance the crank. 

In addition, I personally would not trust a solid roller camshaft to a conical valve spring, especially in a street car, where the springs don't get checked and replaced on regular intervals.  I would use a small diameter dual spring with light retainers. 
« Last Edit: April 06, 2023, 07:06:08 AM by blykins »
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

Mr Woodys Garage

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 45
    • View Profile
Re: Looking For High End Crank Balancing In States Surrounding Iowa
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2023, 06:46:15 AM »
 That Pretty Much Answers My Questions About How To Proceed. Will Have It Done The Way That's Common. I Do Tend To Overthink A Few Things, And This Has Been One Of Them. I Certainly Appreciate All The Input And Advice, And Will Follow It. One Of My Pet Peeves Is When People Ask For Advice, And Then Don't Follow It. I Am Not One Of Those People. Will See If I Can Get This Thing Together By Memorial Day, And Make Some Noise With It. Thanks To Everyone Who Took Time To Help With This,

mbrunson427

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 921
    • View Profile
Re: Looking For High End Crank Balancing In States Surrounding Iowa
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2023, 10:39:28 AM »
I went through my pictures and found one when I was balancing the 4.25" crank for my 428 stroker engine. Hopefully this gives you an idea of what your engine will likely need (being that it's also a 428 stroker engine).

I didn't take any pictures of the drilling operation, but the yellow marker in the picture show where the heavy metal was needed. One piece was put in this location, and then a small hole was drilled in the top of the counterweight to get the balance trimmed back into spec, because we slightly overshoot when placing the heavy metal.

If your situation is similar to this one, which I think it likely will be, only 1 hole will need to be drilled in the top of the counterweight if balanced carefully. You wont have to worry about "swiss cheese".


Mike Brunson
BrunsonPerformance.com

pbf777

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 492
    • View Profile
Re: Looking For High End Crank Balancing In States Surrounding Iowa
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2023, 01:09:58 PM »
        I think most of the responses have covered the concerns that might be created in an effort to lighten a crankshaft.  But if only as a recap: do not just chuck a crank in a lathe and start reducing the counter-weight dimensions, particularly concentric with the crankshaft center-line as even if material removal is required for piston skirt/pin-boss (stroke) clearance with most American V8's it needs to executed in an offset cam-ground fashion to preserve material sums on the counter-weights or you'll be in trouble with the balancing effort.  I think that the statement made by Scat, as quoted  previously might be based on their origins, that with the VW's flat fours as with these (180° opposing layout) and including vertical in-line fours (Pinto 2.0's & 2.3's these with 180° opposing crank throws for example) it has been popular to cut-down the counter-weights solely to "lighten" the mass.   :)

        It's not likely that even the poor machining execution of excessive hole drillings in the counter-weights would lead to cracks in the critical areas of the crankshaft that which leads to failures.  But I have witnessed cracking happening in cast-iron cranks (rarely) about the machining and migrating in an unpleasant manor that didn't instill a lot of confidence in the unit; but with steel forgings (even those of "off-shore" linage) it would be very doubtful that this would really be an issue.    ;)

        But in extreme applications of R.P.M.'s , loading and high frequency vibration being imparted to the crankshaft, particularly if the application is known to present greater than appreciated flexibility, it is popular to remove any concerns for the interruptions in even these surfaces presenting windage influences in the crankcase volume (a properly sized (smaller) counter-weight or an oversized one with big holes drilled in it?  ::)), and any tooling marks that as unlikely as it may be, may create an issue, and here is where one can justify the reasoning for the "no-hole" balancing efforts (and they "wash-up" easier too! ::)).  And all of this is to executed by the one doing the balancing effort!  And if this person is capable, this also permits one to better capitalize on the fact that counter-weight values carried nearer to where it really needs to be vs. sums in excess somewhere else attempting the same effect, though the influence is from afar, will prove to be a lesser sum.  So although a one hole correction works for the entire mass carried, it's established singular positioning is an averaging of the hole, so is this specifically really where the excess solely is, or just the identified fix?  And, it would not be recommended that someone "prepare" a crankshaft with any "lightening" effort, without being aware of the requirements in the balancing first; otherwise as stated previously, you might create quite the challenge for the balancing process, which generally would equate to an enhanced billing sum from the shop for their effort to rectify.   :o

        Probably the greatest concern is whether the crankshaft as originally created, was this executed properly?  As often the manufacturer does not grasp the effect in of the common practice in the use of a singular crankshaft forging with the placement of the counter-weight sums being constant (and hopefully correct for something?  ???)and the various crank-pin and bob-weight mass values and placements due to stroke variances.  Often this proves to cause the requirement of excessive additions of metal which is being required due not to the fact that there is an insufficient mass sum, it's just not in the right place; so now your crankshaft picks-up weight, to offset the manufacturing errors!

        And just to clarify: as far as your steel crankshaft weighing significantly more than the cast iron unit, this has more to do with the sums of material present in the comparison, not the fact of the material differences.  I don't know the exact consistencies of the two being compared but some cast irons can be lighter, or can be at least as heavy or more than as some steels, I not sure here if difference would really be significant but......?   :-\   As for the 391 steel cranks, my experience in the past is that they come up short on the counter-weight sums and more often require greater heavy-metal additions; this as compared to the O.E.M. 427 cranks.

       Overall in something like an FE engine don't get all worked up over the fancified possibilities, as this unit in all but it's rarest forms wouldn't  truly benefit from the efforts, and yes "all the details & little things do add up", but  just follow sound and proper processes and spend you time and money wisely.   :)

       Scott.

           
« Last Edit: April 06, 2023, 01:12:29 PM by pbf777 »

Mr Woodys Garage

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 45
    • View Profile
Re: Looking For High End Crank Balancing In States Surrounding Iowa
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2023, 05:30:27 PM »
I Appreciate That Very Much, Scott. I Will Reach Out To mbrunson427 On Monday, and Schedule A Trip To His Shop. Not Too Far Away, And His Builds Are Very Similar To What I Am Building. I Do Tend To Overthink Things Sometimes, Looking For That Elusive Something That Will Make Average Into Great.
   Again, Thanks To Everyone Who Took The Time To Respond To My Question, It Has Been Answered And Explained, So I Won't At Some Point In The Future Wonder"What If?
  I Did, Finally This Morning, Take A Good Look At That Crank From Scat. I Had Glanced At It In The Box To Inspect For Shippping Damage, But Not Really Examined The Design Features,How It Was Made and The Quality Level, At Least Appearance Wise. They Really Put A Lot Of Work And Thought Into Many Of The Features. Its Definately Light Years Ahead Of A Stock 428 Crank . Contours, Edges, Etc. Makes The Decision To Upgrade And Spend The $$$ For The Stroker A Bit Easier To Justify.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2023, 09:45:26 PM by Mr Woodys Garage »

cammerfe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
    • View Profile
Re: Looking For High End Crank Balancing In States Surrounding Iowa
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2023, 10:52:54 PM »
Some years ago, I spent significant time in what, at the time, was known as Roush's "Prototype Engineering Facility". I was creating a 14 month series of magazine articles on the right way to build a 21st century FE engine. The prototype shop was the place where Jack was building all his NASCAR engines at the time. Magazines were going through quite a change at the time, so some of the monthly articles were published in Mustang Illustrated. Some were in Mustang and Fords, and some in Super Ford. I had free run of the facility, taking pictures of all the FE stuff necessary to go in the stories. Jack and I had never spoken of it, but on one occasion we were standing talking together and Michael Kranefuss walked in. Jack introduced us and started to tell Kranefuss something. Out of the corner of my eye I could see Kranefuss making motions for Jack to stop talking. Jack gave me one of the very best compliments I've ever had. He told MK that I was to be trusted not to take advantage of anything I might see or hear.

I tell you that so you'll understand that I saw the insides of the NASCAR engines virtually every time I went in there.

The crank balancing procedure at that time was to use a Bridgeport set up specifically to mount a crank so as to be able to bore a hole in the side, not on the circumference, of the crank weight where the balancing machine said it should go. The proper weight of Mallory was pressed into the hole thus formed, and then a fine line of TIG weldment was placed around the circumference of the weight. It looked VERY professionally done. I'm sure that Jack will have no problem with this explanation. I don't know what they do now. The prototype shop is long gone to the Carolinas.

KS

blykins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4828
    • View Profile
    • Lykins Motorsports
Re: Looking For High End Crank Balancing In States Surrounding Iowa
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2023, 05:09:15 AM »
Some years ago, I spent significant time in what, at the time, was known as Roush's "Prototype Engineering Facility". I was creating a 14 month series of magazine articles on the right way to build a 21st century FE engine. The prototype shop was the place where Jack was building all his NASCAR engines at the time. Magazines were going through quite a change at the time, so some of the monthly articles were published in Mustang Illustrated. Some were in Mustang and Fords, and some in Super Ford. I had free run of the facility, taking pictures of all the FE stuff necessary to go in the stories. Jack and I had never spoken of it, but on one occasion we were standing talking together and Michael Kranefuss walked in. Jack introduced us and started to tell Kranefuss something. Out of the corner of my eye I could see Kranefuss making motions for Jack to stop talking. Jack gave me one of the very best compliments I've ever had. He told MK that I was to be trusted not to take advantage of anything I might see or hear.

I tell you that so you'll understand that I saw the insides of the NASCAR engines virtually every time I went in there.

The crank balancing procedure at that time was to use a Bridgeport set up specifically to mount a crank so as to be able to bore a hole in the side, not on the circumference, of the crank weight where the balancing machine said it should go. The proper weight of Mallory was pressed into the hole thus formed, and then a fine line of TIG weldment was placed around the circumference of the weight. It looked VERY professionally done. I'm sure that Jack will have no problem with this explanation. I don't know what they do now. The prototype shop is long gone to the Carolinas.

KS

That's the way everyone adds metal.  Some weld, some don't.  If you put it in the outside rim of the counterweight, the engine would promptly introduce the metal to the oil pan (and whatever is underneath).   

You didn't see anything secret, that's the only way to add metal.
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

Barry_R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1918
    • View Profile
    • Survival Motorsports
Re: Looking For High End Crank Balancing In States Surrounding Iowa
« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2023, 07:49:59 AM »
That's the way everyone adds metal.  Some weld, some don't.  If you put it in the outside rim of the counterweight, the engine would promptly introduce the metal to the oil pan (and whatever is underneath).   

You didn't see anything secret, that's the only way to add metal.

Now you're getting into the "welding Mallory" debate too?!

We have never welded a piece yet, and have never had a piece come out - but it's only been a couple decades so far.  I suppose it couple happen.

But the reality is that you are not going to weld anything to that slug of tungsten (which is what Mallory is).  Tungsten is what the darn welding tip in your welding machine is made of because it ain't very easy to weld to.  Theoretically, welding a tiny bead around the edge along with a corresponding chamfer in the slug would build a wall around the slug preventing movement.  But the simple fact that most folks -including some very high end applications - have been doing without the weld pretty much forever should tel you that it's a "solution looking for a problem".

blykins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4828
    • View Profile
    • Lykins Motorsports
Re: Looking For High End Crank Balancing In States Surrounding Iowa
« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2023, 08:14:09 AM »
We do not weld.  Just a press fit.  No issues to date, up to 1200 hp and 9000 rpm.  I do know some guys who weld though.

My response, “….that’s the only way to add metal” was referring to which axis the metal is installed in.

If you remember “Pop’s” from 8-10 years ago, he tried to install heavy metal perpendicular to the axis of the crank centerline by drilling into the outside of the counterweight.  It very quickly made a hole in the oil pan.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2023, 08:17:07 AM by blykins »
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

gregaba

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 935
    • View Profile
Re: Looking For High End Crank Balancing In States Surrounding Iowa
« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2023, 08:59:58 AM »
If you are worried about the added weight of the steel crank then just use a Hay's aluminum flywheel. I used then in all my stick car's.
If you have one all ready then disregard this note.
Greg

Barry_R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1918
    • View Profile
    • Survival Motorsports
Re: Looking For High End Crank Balancing In States Surrounding Iowa
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2023, 12:44:48 PM »
We do not weld.  Just a press fit.  No issues to date, up to 1200 hp and 9000 rpm.  I do know some guys who weld though.

My response, “….that’s the only way to add metal” was referring to which axis the metal is installed in.

If you remember “Pop’s” from 8-10 years ago, he tried to install heavy metal perpendicular to the axis of the crank centerline by drilling into the outside of the counterweight.  It very quickly made a hole in the oil pan.

Not meant into a dig at you.  Just figured we/he was going to go down that path next once it got mentioned.

pbf777

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 492
    • View Profile
Re: Looking For High End Crank Balancing In States Surrounding Iowa
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2023, 02:33:12 PM »
      O.K., another comment on the Mallory/Tungsten installation processes.

      Back a several decades ago it was common to install heavy-metal in the counter-weights perpendicular to the crankshaft centerline, this with a welding process to retain.  With proper execution one generally didn't have any problems.  But then the generally experienced operating R.P.M.'s kept creeping up, and the process became a more common practice, often by individuals who shouldn't have, and then rather than typically the crankshaft being of steel forgings of the higher-end examples it was being more frequently executed on cheaper cast iron crankshafts which just don't lend themselves to the same interference fitment nor are they as successful to the welding efforts.  :)

      There are instances where horizontal installations are not reasonably feasible and perpendicular, even if not desired can be performed successfully.  Steel cranks really aren't a problem; but yes, if the process is being executed by an idiot, then yes, failure is eminent  ::).   Now in cast iron, yes that should be avoided; but if it is a must,  then I have had no failures (metal gone flying!  :o) if really welded in properly.  For reference my procedure being:  yes, make it a press-in, but not too tight as the iron casting will otherwise crack; position the heavy-metal below the outer circumference of the counter-weight at least 3/8" (more is better but the offset weight value is degraded with depth  ;)); Pre-heat the iron cast with the oxi-acetylene torch to a dark glow signature; now with the tig-torch lay the heat to the tungsten (yes it will pool, just takes some amps!) lay down a weld bead on the tungsten and joining the cast iron washing in the parent material onto the tungsten with the filler material which I have found that stainless rod works best.  With this not only is the weldment fixturing the metal but the casting above is shrunk reducing the hole diameter.  8)

      If done right, and with cooperation from the casting, as it is the cast material that fails and allows the heavy metal to slip, but generally it isn't coming out readily if done right; and I have previously attempted harvesting the tungsten back out of used-up cranks.

      Also, yes, solely a press-fit installation (horizontal) does look slick, and yes I have done them that way, but like the previously stated experience that of a professional NASCAR shop where I'm sure they could follow this successfully, they, in such extreme racing requirements, leave little to chance,........... just add the weld material, and the bi@ch ain't going anywhere!  ;D

      Oh and,  If the metal comes flying out, it may exit the crankshaft anywhere in its' 360° rotation!  ;)    I did see one come out, pass thru the oil pan and bury itself deep in the asphalt, but some others managed to do significant damage to the blocks as they took flight!  ::)

      Scott.

Jim Comet

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 366
    • View Profile
Re: Looking For High End Crank Balancing In States Surrounding Iowa
« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2023, 07:20:59 PM »
I got lucky, RPM steel 3.98 crank, Molnar rods and Mahle pistons required no mallory to balance. Jim