Edelbrock 60069 heads.

[JimNolan]

Guys,
I need to know a few things.
1. Can you use a .020 ( if I can find them ) steel shim head gaskets on the Edelbrock 60069 heads.
2. Will the 6009 Edelbrock Rocker Arm Studs allow me to use my stock 1.73 Ford Rocker Arms and stock valve covers.
3. Will the stock head bolts work with these heads.
4. Does the 60069 head really have 72cc chambers or do you get them and they end up having 76cc's, etc.

I'm NOT taking the piston's back out of this block to get over 7.5 DCR, and if I've got to use thick gaskets I'm screwed. Those piston's have 15cc dishes and it would have worked out well with stock heads but I'm tired of throwing money at lesser heads if I don't have to. Jim

 PS  Can anyone see an alternative and still make the 60069 heads work.

[afret]

Don't know if it's a good idea to use shim gaskets with Edelbrocks.  You can get Cometic MLS gaskets that are .027" thick in any bore size.  The newer Edelbrocks are supposed to be closer to their advertised combustion chamber volume.  You can get the heads milled and you lose somewhere around 2cc for each .01" milled.  Should be able to safely mill a lot off these heads if needed. Your studs and rockers should work.
The ARP head bolts might be better since they come with washers to go against the aluminum.

[JimNolan]

I talked to Preston ( Edelbrock Tech ) and he said there was no reason why I shouldn't be able to use the 1132G steel shim gaskets I have on the aluminum heads. If there's anyone that had trouble with these gaskets and aluminum heads, I need to know "now". I should be able to mill .012" off the aluminum heads and end up with 9.6 SCR and 7.6 DCR. Thanks, Jim
 PSSSSSSSS. The instructions with the heads say that you have to use 1.76 adjustable rockers with these heads. I called Edelbrock back and they said they wouldn't stand behind the application if I didn't use 1.76 rockers. Don't understand it. Can't figure out how the heads know if you're using 1.73 rockers or 1.76 rockers. I guess these heads are just meant for people that go with their hair on fire all the time. Oh well.

[jayb]

I can't imagine you would have any issue using the 1.73 non-adjustable rockers; should not be a problem.

+1 on Earl's idea to mill the heads.  The decks on those heads are THICK, and I've milled at least one pair over .060" to get the chamber size where I wanted it.  I had an early pair (~2005) that were supposed to be 72cc and ended up being 78cc, but my later pair were right on 72cc.  Doesn't really matter though if you can mill them.

[JimNolan]

 Jay,   
 That's me Jay, I asked him why and he said they wanted to make sure I had the right pre-load on the lifter. I told him I was using a tool to check push rod length before I fired it up and all he could say is the instructions says 1.76 adjustable rockers "REQUIRED" and they wouldn't stand behind them if I had problems. I figured it might be that the valve springs might be heavier and they didn't want someone using 5/16" push rods. They give 120 lbs closed and that's 20lbs more than what my cam calls for.
  I really want them, now if they send me a bad head I'm afraid I might have trouble getting a replacement if I don't jump through hoops for them. I don't need solid lifters and adjustable rockers are an expensive way to set valve lash on a hydraulic lifter. Jim

[drdano]

How would they actually know if you used the adjustable rockers or not?     In the unlikely event of a problem, I'd say they can't.  Besides, if you mill them they are yours anyway forever, so I'd not worry to much about it.  You'll be fine with the non-adjustable rockers, sounds like you know what you're doing setting them up correctly. 

[JimNolan]

You know what. I'm getting old and I don't think I'll be taking it with me anyway. What they are telling me doesn't make sense, and, like you said, milling them makes them mine anyway. Jim 

[JimNolan]

Afret,
    It's done. The cometic 4.08" X .027 MLS gaskets are on the way. Tomorrow I'll order the heads from Summit, unless there's a cheaper place I find. Anyway, I'll get 3/8" push rods to size and use the 1.73 rocker ratio. The nice thing about these gaskets is, I'm now at 9.4 SCR and 7.5 DCR without milling the heads. If I were building a screamer I'd go ahead and raise the DCR but I just want it to run good, that's all. I read a feedback of a guy that put 40,000 miles on a set of 60069's without any trouble. I hope he wasn't blowing smoke. Jim

[My427stang]

What happened to ported C1s?  They'll outflow the Edels by 40 cfm.  I like Edel heads, just wondering why the change?

- I don't think stock head bolts will fit, or in the very least I do not think you can get a socket on them. I'd go aftermarket with a washer.

- You can run the stock rockers, but not sure what pushrod length you'd need AND you'd need to run  stud kit, you can't use the stock length rocker stand bolts

- All the sets I have had come through were slightly larger than advertised, all were above 74 cc

- I don't see any issue with the head gasket you want, assuming the block is decked for a nice flat surface

I would check installed heights and spring pressures though, I have seen Edels come with some stout springs, hate to see you eat a cam

[JimNolan]

427stang,
    My machinest is putting me off, Les won't answer the damned phone and I figure I'd have as much in shipping as I would in getting the heads done anyway. I'm tired. I want to bolt on and go. I've fooled with this thing and calculated until I'm exhausted. And, my Desktop Dyno 5 goes wild with this setup I'm putting together. I'll pay good money to have a job done for me but I won't tolerate being jerked around and still have to pony up that same money. O yes, ARP bolts and washers. I'm getting the 6009 stud kit for the heads too. Jim

[jayb]

FWIW the stock head bolts work fine on Edelbrock heads.  I used them when I did the low buck 390 stroker for the Car Craft article.  Seems to me I had to use a 3/8 drive socket with a 1/2" drive adapter to torque the head bolts; the 3/8" socket fit in the counterbore in the heads, but the 1/2" socket didn't.  I also used the stock rockers shafts and rocker bolts; just used some washers under the bolts to make sure they didn't bottom out in the holes in the heads.  No issues with any of that...

[JimNolan]

Everyone,
   I really appreciate the patience and help you've given me. Information you guys take for granted is very benificial to me. Not having to mill the heads takes a big load off. This should be a good running, hopefully dependable build. It won't be lifting the frount end off the ground but it should make a nice engine for a 4000 lb car. Thanks again. Jim

[WConley]

Jim -

If you're milling those Ed heads, be sure to leave a SMOOTH surface finish.  Those MLS head gaskets typically require a roughness average (Ra) of 20 or better.  Ford 4.6L heads were generally 12-15 Ra  in production.

Here's a little article that talks about it:

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/93036/smooth_moves_todays_surfaces_often_demand_different_finishes.aspx

FYI - Standard composite head gaskets are far more tolerant of rough surface finish and waviness than these MLS gaskets.

- Bill


Edit - I see from your last post that you're no longer thinking of milling the heads after all.  Best of luck with your build!

[JimNolan]

Bill,
   Hopefully the heads will come in at 72cc's. I'll cc them when they come in. If not, I'll have to mill and I will remember your post. Thanks, Jim

[JimNolan]

427stang,
    I called Edelbrock and they confirmed the 60069 heads came with the 5792 valve springs. They said the seat pressure and pressure at .600 was 132/312 lbs. respectively. I called Scott Main at Cam Research and he pulled the files on the cam he made me. He said the installed height and spring pressures would be all right with my cam. Now, if the heads come in at 72 cc's I should be set. Thanks again. Jim 

[My427stang]

Good stuff Jim, looking forward to hearing the results

[Joe-jdc]

Just did a set of Edelbrock RPM heads and the CCs were 72.2, and the springs had 160# on the seat at 1.930" installed height.  Very good springs, and verified on two spring testers.  I was surprised they were so strong.  Joe-JDC.

[JimNolan]

Alright,
   I've got another question. Has anyone ordered the Sealed Power R821 adjustable rockers. If you have, can you tell me if they came with bushings already installed. I can buy new rockers and shafts for right at $300.00. Also, are the springs and stands of a adjustable rocker arm assy. the same as a hydraulic assy. Jim PS. In case your wondering the hydraulic unit I have is God knows how old, so theres no use using hydraulic if I've got to buy new assembley's anyway.

[My427stang]

Stands, springs and shafts will swap between mechanical and hyd.  There are differences in some shaft oiling design, but as a rule of thumb, point holes down and then ignore the differences LOL

I don't know how the Sealed Power rocker delivers but it should be ready to slide on on the shaft

It's added cost, but Doug Garifo's end stands are a good idea to keep the end 4 rockers and shafts stable. 

and of course you'll need pushrods too with the adjustable valve train

[JimNolan]

427Stang,
     I've got new "Stock" Sealed Power rockers and shafts comming. I talked with Scott Main awhile and he's sending me the correct pushrods to go with the hydraulic lifters and cam I got from him. He's also sending me the shims that the Edelbrock intake valve re-location needs. I looked at the stands that you suggested for the rocker arms. I want them but, I need to know one thing first. I'll call them and find out if they'll work with the stock oil tray I'm religously going to make sure stays with this setup. I'm more concerned with directing oil back into the oil pan than the ends of the rocker shafts breaking off with 312 lb. spring pressure. Am I thinking wrong. Jim  PS.  In my search for information I've run across your name and handle on everything from FE's to Packard rocker shaft rebuilds.
 PSSSSSS  Called Doug and he said I'd have to cut the spring guards of the tray off each end spring.

[My427stang]

I just used a set of Dougs end stands with the later non fingered oil tins and stock hyd rockers

I just shaped them a little in the vise, tightened them down so that the stands did the rest of the pushing for me, then used a screwdriver-sized pry bar and made sure nothing was rubbing

Took no time at all and worked great

[bartlett]

mine came in at 72.3  apox....

[KMcCullah]

I just used a set of Dougs end stands with the later non fingered oil tins and stock hyd rockers

I just shaped them a little in the vise, tightened them down so that the stands did the rest of the pushing for me, then used a screwdriver-sized pry bar and made sure nothing was rubbing

Took no time at all and worked great

X2 what Ross did. My tins needed a little massaging for the POP end stands to work. No biggie.
For the record, With fairly stout valve springs, (can't remember the valve open pressure)the ends of my rocker shafts were flexing up .011 without end stands.

[JimNolan]

427stang, Bartlett, KMcCullah,
    Alright guys here's what I did. The heads look great. I cc'd them about an hour ago. The only thing I had to stick in the sparkplug hole was a Champion L77JC4 Lawn mower spark plug with a .4175 reach. It took 2.5 CC's to fill the spark plug hole. I finished filling the combustion chamber until all the air bubble was gone and it was pouring out the hole in the glass. It read 73 cc's exactly. The plugs I need to use have a .750" reach so with a little mathmatics you figure if you add 43.6% more hole volume that enables me to deduct 1.085 cc's from my total of 73. It's comming in right at 72cc's. They must have tighter quality control now. I was pleased.
   OK the other delima, rocker tray and Doug's hold down's. The two outer drip troughs will have to be altered. Really made me mad since I made such a fuss about it. Since I have to alter the trays (Edelbrock does have nice milled troughts in it already) anyway. I'm going to call Doug back and order the shaft ends from him. The last post by KMcCullah is informative also. The tray I don't want to live without after reading Jay's book about 3/4 qt. more oil in the pan with the tray and the shaft end pieces will be a little more security on what I think is a good setup for a mild build.
 Thanks guys, Your advice is priceless to me. Even though I am hard headed, I can learn.  Jim    PS.  Just got off the phone with Doug and he's sending me the oil restrictors for the heads and ALL the stands including the end stands. DONE

[bartlett]

I had a burr on mine right by the oil feeding hole ... this caused a leak to my rockers. stoned it off, I also restricted the heads with a jet,   

I also found that I liked using right stuff on the head side of the valve cover gasket, this keeps the gasket glued to the head, It keeps the oil from running down my motor when I pull the covers to inspect or adjust

just some things I found .....

[drdano]

When you get those rockers, get a small flashlight and a hook/pick set and go through the oil holes very carefully.  I found all sorts of small machining "treasures" left over in those holes in my last set of Comp aluminum roller rockers.  Very easy to pick them out if they are present and will keep them from finding their way into other places in the motor.  Also, on the other forum someone mentioned using short roll pins instead of cotter keys on the end shafts (since the end stands cover the holes) as an extra safety measure in the unlikely event one of the staked internal shaft plugs decides to come loose.  I thought that was a good idea and on my next valve adjustment I'll be doing that myself.

[JimNolan]

When you get those rockers, get a small flashlight and a hook/pick set and go through the oil holes very carefully.  I found all sorts of small machining "treasures" left over in those holes in my last set of Comp aluminum roller rockers.  Very easy to pick them out if they are present and will keep them from finding their way into other places in the motor.  Also, on the other forum someone mentioned using short roll pins instead of cotter keys on the end shafts (since the end stands cover the holes) as an extra safety measure in the unlikely event one of the staked internal shaft plugs decides to come loose.  I thought that was a good idea and on my next valve adjustment I'll be doing that myself.

drdano,
   Thanks on the roll pin info. You guys are absolutely priceless. Just like the commercal about that credit card. Only you guys don't ask for a fee from me using that information. Thanks, Jim

[My427stang]

When you get those rockers, get a small flashlight and a hook/pick set and go through the oil holes very carefully.  I found all sorts of small machining "treasures" left over in those holes in my last set of Comp aluminum roller rockers.  Very easy to pick them out if they are present and will keep them from finding their way into other places in the motor.  Also, on the other forum someone mentioned using short roll pins instead of cotter keys on the end shafts (since the end stands cover the holes) as an extra safety measure in the unlikely event one of the staked internal shaft plugs decides to come loose.  I thought that was a good idea and on my next valve adjustment I'll be doing that myself.

drdano,
   Thanks on the roll pin info. You guys are absolutely priceless. Just like the commercal about that credit card. Only you guys don't ask for a fee from me using that information. Thanks, Jim

We bill quarterly, its coming...   

[JimNolan]

427stang,
    While I got you here and the bill's comming anyway, I need to know something. The drainback holes in the new heads are .434". I opened one up to .445" with my adjustable reamer and then got to thinking I haven't asked advice yet. How much should I open them up. By the way, I made adjustments to one tray and it's looking pretty good. Thanks, Jim

[My427stang]

 I dot open them up, I just make sure they are blended decently.  The early Edels had a drainback issue, but that was corrected years ago.

I think you are pretty good where you are, just shape it and smooth it out a bit

[JimNolan]

427stang,
   Thanks, I'll leave them alone. Where they dump out into the engine they are wollowed out quite a bit. They're a lot bigger than the C1AE's. Jim

[Qikbbstang]

 I disassembled and assembled an Edelbrock headed 390 that had ARP head bolts. The nightmare was ARP used a reduced socket size then factory Ford. The problem was they did that with a 6-point head not a 12-point as is the custom when dealing with higher torque on a smaller bolt head. Man getting a weenie 6-point broken loose and later torqued up was scarry for it wanted to slip off and you could tell it did not like seeing that much force.

[JimNolan]

Qikbbstang,
     As I was pulling up the last head bolt on the 1st Edelbrock head that required 110 lbs torque. The torque wrench broke loose and I instantly thought I'd broke the ARP bolt or the threads came out of the head. I felt like throwing the torque wrench across the room or at least cussing out some idiot that thought 110 lbs was needed to torque down a head.  I put the torque wrench back on it and started pulling to see if the threads were gone. I estimate at about 80 lbs the torque wrench broke loose again. The socket had rounded off inside thank God. I torqued the other head to 100 lbs with a new socket and left them there. After I get about 30 minutes run time on the stand I'll retorque to 100 lbs. I don't want to go to 110 again. 100 lbs should torque a head down. Wouldn't ya think?
   

[afret]

I've read that ARP recommends 75 ft-lbs or so with ARP lube which is different from Edelbrock.  I've been taking the head bolts to 85-90 ft-lbs with ARP lube.  Others have used the Edelbrock numbers with no problems.  If your block has been torque plate honed, I would use the torque that was used with the torque plates.
ARP seems to have come out with a new lube so I don't know what that does to the numbers.  LOL
I think you will be fine.

[jayb]

ARP's new lube is not as slippery as the old stuff, so the torque numbers with the new lube will be lower than they were with the old lube.

[jmlay]

If not as slippery the tq would go up, more effort for the same clamping force.

Mike

[JimNolan]

I decided to retorque the top row of the 1st head to 100. That way they'll all be the same like the last one I put on. Shouldn't hurt anything. I hope.

[My427stang]

You'll be fine

Get the old girl running already

(Who am I to talk, I did initial break in for the 445, but still no fenders or doors on the truck LOL)

[jayb]

If not as slippery the tq would go up, more effort for the same clamping force.

Mike

Yep,  I think I had it backwards.  The new lube is more viscous than the old ARP lube, but maybe it is actually more slippery.  To get .006" stretch on a Crower rod bolt I needed 82 ft-lbs with the old lube, but only 75 with the new stuff.

[390 Cougar Conv]

Where can one get a burette for CCing???  Clifford

[jayb]

Summit Racing sells them, just do a search on "burette". 

[390 Cougar Conv]

Thanks Jay.  Clifford

[fe66comet]

I just use a veterinarians syringe they come in huge sizes then there is little math involved.

[390 Cougar Conv]

Thats a good idea, never thought of that. Thanks Clifford