Felony head vs Pond Head FE

[BigBlockFE]

How do these heads differ if left unported, are there any advantages either one has over the other for a street 482FE for example, price seems to be similar...

[ScotiaFE]

The FElony and BBM head for that matter are decades a head (pun intended) of the Pond.
Way better chamber.
The Pond is a copy of an old Ford racing head of decades past.
The Pond chamber is a machined 88cc's or there about's.
The new modern chamber of the FElony and BBM is a very good looking heart shape with good swirl
promoting in and out much more efficiently.
Allowing much better control of the burn and less chance of detonation.
Also requiring less timing input.
Everything is better.
Perfect for a hard working 482.
Full discloser: I own a set of BBM's and think they are one of the best heads you can buy today.

[blykins]

I have never used an as-cast pond head, but the cnc pond heads work really well.  The chambers aren't that dinosaur-ish, we usually run 32-34 deg total with them.  Jon Kaase designed the exhaust ports and IMO they have one of the best exhaust port profiles out there.

If I were doing an as-cast head, I'd use a bbm or survival head.  If going for a ported head, I'd go Survival or Pond.

[Joe-JDC]

The Pond head unported is similar to a stock Ford head, with a very poor exhaust port flow.  I have ported them, and it takes a lot of work to get the exhaust to perform well.  Once it is ported correctly, it does flow well.  The Survival head is much better in the unported form.  JMO, but I have ported them both, and the Survival exhaust has a much better exhaust short turn, better short turn on the intake, and better combustion chamber design.  Joe-JDC.

[blykins]

We've messed with some bbms here and had them going pretty good with some hand porting.  Didn't get to try them on an engine yet, but were getting 330/240 with some port filling and pretty small valves. 

Didn't get to flow Barry's as-cast head but it did really well with the 445 that I built several weeks back.

I really like Barry's cnc head, it flowed around 370 here on the intake side, but fell short on the exhaust side.  I've had several sets of pond cnc heads that approached 260 cfm on exhaust flow.  Again, I haven't seen an as-cast pond, but Keith has a really nice cnc program for them. 

[BigBlockFE]

Pond, BBM, and Felony all look about the same price...I guess the felony and bbm are on top, and then a ported or ed head...

[blykins]

How much hp are you wanting?

[BigBlockFE]

550-600 hp...

[blykins]

You can make 550 hp with any of the 3 as-cast heads that we've discussing.  If you're aiming for something closer to the 600 mark, you'll need a CNC Pond, or Barry's CNC head.

[ScotiaFE]

You can make 550 hp with any of the 3 as-cast heads that we've discussing.  If you're aiming for something closer to the 600 mark, you'll need a CNC Pond, or Barry's CNC head.

Well Blair Patrick made 574 HP on a well built 396 using basically stock BBM's,
so if you put the same head on a 482 ci short block with enough stick I'm pretty sure you'll get your 600 HP.
Barry is out of stock of Felony heads according to him and will be for some time.
Blair Patrick also builds the BBM heads for the company. Can't go wrong there.

http://bearblockmotors.com/performance-updates/

[BigBlockFE]

Cast in Korea (BBM), I would rather buy Barrys head and keep the money in the USA, not doubting the quality, but if pond can cast his blocks,heads in the usa and barry can cast his heads in the usa, why cant BBM do it, I love the USA, I understand some part if not most are cast in other countries but if I have a choice I going with a USA company...

[BigBlockFE]

What is cheaper and ed head ported or barrys head stock, seeing they will make the same power...you have to port the ed head to make it flow like barrys head???

[Joe-JDC]

Are you serious about buying a set of heads?  If so, then you need to contact Barry about pricing, and Keith Craft,  Robert Pond, BBM, Blair Patrick, Brent Lykins and ask them for their pricing on their heads.  That will give you the answers without causing some of us to have to pick or choose sides on what works best.  Any of the aluminum  heads that are available now are much better than used iron heads, and porting will bring parity in horsepower potential from whichever one you choose.  The cost will be different, and therein lies the rub by you asking in an open forum.  JMO, but call the vendor and get your information first hand.  I like them all, have ported them all professionally, and I don't want to pick a favorite and offend anyone who I have to deal with on a regular basis.   Joe-JDC.

[fekbmax]

I agree with you Joe-JDC. There's only a hand full of great FE head porters out there including the ones you mentioned and a few more and all of them do good work. Everyone has a preference I'm sure but I think its best to talk to these guys about what your wanting and what your looking for. The more info you can give them the more they can do for you on your budget.  Time frame and availability is another thing, especially if your wanting something more radical. I can tell you that from my openion Blair Patrick and Jim Kuntz are just plane good people and will take the time and as much as it takes to sit and talk to you about what you need.

[BigBlockFE]

Got all the info I need, I like to use these forums to learn what the general public uses and likes, everyone on here has been more than nice and I am aware of all the builders out there and there work, if they want to pm a price that's fine, either way, thanks for the info, and for parts being made in asia, if I can buy in the usa I will that is not to knock any ones product...

[ScotiaFE]

I was wrong, he can get 666 hp.
A bit devilish.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/thread/1435874607/Dyno+results+-+Blair+Patrick+482%26quot%3B+FE+with+near+stock+out+of+the+box+BBM+heads

[BigBlockFE]

very impressive, big numbers, I wish all dynos were the same...

[ScotiaFE]

very impressive, big numbers, I wish all dynos were the same...

Are you suggesting that this dyno is not accurate?
Or your dyno test of a 482 BBM FE was not the same?
Pretty sure Blair Patrick does actual testing and not fantasy testing.

[Barry_R]

1.319 TQ per cubic inch on an as cast head, pump gas engine is very impressive.

[blykins]

"Accurate" is relative. 

Dynos are a necessary evil.  To a builder, they're a way of making sure the engine doesn't come apart, it doesn't leak, doesn't smoke, carb is tuned, timing is right, etc.  It's also a great way to show incremental changes.   To the general public, it's a bragging right, and most guys just wanna see that peak hp number.

This is something I discuss with almost every other builder, including Barry, Keith, and Blair, because it's a "thorn in the side" to all of us. 

From what I've seen in the use of several engine dynos in the area, most do not read the same.  This was one of the factors behind the EMC...you get a bunch of guys on the same dyno, then all the guessing and variables can go away.   I'm sure Barry or Blair will tell you the same thing, but as a builder, you basically pick a dyno that you're familiar with and then stick with that one so you can have a way of comparing past/future builds.  Barry has his own.  Blair uses Jim Morgan's dyno.  I use Dale Meers' dyno.  That way, if I do a 482 with a specific cam/head/intake package, then change a cam on the next 482 while keeping the other variables the same, I can see what the difference is. 

I'm often concerned that the numbers I'm getting are "accurate".  The correction factor has a large part in the numbers and where the weather station is located has a large part in the numbers.  If the computer is getting STP from the intake air, it will show different numbers than if the computer is getting STP from the dyno room, where the engine is running and the headers are adding to ambient temperature.

On the dyno I use, it's typical to see correction factors anywhere from 1.06 to 1.1.  That's a 6-11% correction right off the bat, and it will vary based on whether I dyno in the winter, dyno in the summer, etc.   I've even taken the time to gather weather data independently and calculate the correction factor manually, just to compare to what the dyno is seeing.  Again, the general jist of it is that if I dyno that same engine in the winter or summer, the numbers should be the same because the computer should be correcting.

I have already made plans with Barry to dyno one of my engines here, then make some pulls up there.   I'm curious to see the difference as we often compare notes and commonly see the same horsepower between similar builds, but I tend to show more torque.  If I dyno here and then dyno there and show a lot less torque, then it will be more data for us to sift through and decipher.   To be brutally honest, we all want to know how we compare to each other.  I'll be the first one to raise my hand and say that I'm not as sharp as Blair,  but it would be nice to get us all on the same dyno one day to see what the difference actually is. 

[BigBlockFE]

Either way all you guys really know what you are doing, I would love to able to do a quarter of what you can do with an FE, all the guys around me think the FE is the biggest piece of crap motor ever built, they love the Windsor, of course they are not concerned with the History of the FE as I am so they wont touch it...

[fastback 427]

"All the guys around me think the fe is the biggest piece of crap motor ever built"  Well, nobody is perfect  That why God made hondas, to keep the flaps of of harleys.

[CaptCobrajet]

"Accurate" is relative. 

Dynos are a necessary evil.  To a builder, they're a way of making sure the engine doesn't come apart, it doesn't leak, doesn't smoke, carb is tuned, timing is right, etc.  It's also a great way to show incremental changes.   To the general public, it's a bragging right, and most guys just wanna see that peak hp number.

This is something I discuss with almost every other builder, including Barry, Keith, and Blair, because it's a "thorn in the side" to all of us. 

From what I've seen in the use of several engine dynos in the area, most do not read the same.  This was one of the factors behind the EMC...you get a bunch of guys on the same dyno, then all the guessing and variables can go away.   I'm sure Barry or Blair will tell you the same thing, but as a builder, you basically pick a dyno that you're familiar with and then stick with that one so you can have a way of comparing past/future builds.  Barry has his own.  Blair uses Jim Morgan's dyno.  I use Dale Meers' dyno.  That way, if I do a 482 with a specific cam/head/intake package, then change a cam on the next 482 while keeping the other variables the same, I can see what the difference is. 

I'm often concerned that the numbers I'm getting are "accurate".  The correction factor has a large part in the numbers and where the weather station is located has a large part in the numbers.  If the computer is getting STP from the intake air, it will show different numbers than if the computer is getting STP from the dyno room, where the engine is running and the headers are adding to ambient temperature.

On the dyno I use, it's typical to see correction factors anywhere from 1.06 to 1.1.  That's a 6-11% correction right off the bat, and it will vary based on whether I dyno in the winter, dyno in the summer, etc.   I've even taken the time to gather weather data independently and calculate the correction factor manually, just to compare to what the dyno is seeing.  Again, the general jist of it is that if I dyno that same engine in the winter or summer, the numbers should be the same because the computer should be correcting.

I have already made plans with Barry to dyno one of my engines here, then make some pulls up there.   I'm curious to see the difference as we often compare notes and commonly see the same horsepower between similar builds, but I tend to show more torque.  If I dyno here and then dyno there and show a lot less torque, then it will be more data for us to sift through and decipher.   To be brutally honest, we all want to know how we compare to each other.  I'll be the first one to raise my hand and say that I'm not as sharp as Blair,  but it would be nice to get us all on the same dyno one day to see what the difference actually is.
[quote/]

Thanks Brent for the compliment.......I really spend zero time wondering how my junk compares to anybody else.  We build and dyno alot of engines....about 99% FE engines, and I very rarely post any results on the forums any more.  Without fail, someone will make comments to suggest that the numbers I get are not real.  Fact one:  We do not, and have never purposefully blown up a dyno number (and it is easy to do).  Fact two:  I swept up a bunch of junk I had in the floor in 2008 and took it to Engine Masters.......a filled Ford 428 block, a pair of Dove heads I had laying here that I extensively worked, a Ford intake cast in 1963 that I worked on, and a 4150 carb (in a field of Dominators) and as a LUCKY coincidence I had the highest scoring Ford FE on the grounds.  The EMC dyno showed me 14 more HP than Morgan's on that engine.  Fact three:  I do not care what the dyno NUMBER or the flow bench NUMBER says, as long as the board at the end of the race track shows the right numbers, and the little light comes on when someone wins a heads-up race with an engine or parts of an engine from here.  Fact four:  I've been doing this stuff with FE engines for an honest 37 years, and I am 45 now..........I apply everything I have stumbled across, every day, and sometimes I see something I did not see yesterday that makes improvement.    When I went faster than anyone else in my classes, some said...oh, he's gotta be cheating...........funny, NHRA's most rigorous tech man of the time tore my junk apart numerous times and found nothing illegal.  Now I apply alot of what I learned over my life of this to the Nostalgia and street FE stuff, and poof!.........it's gotta be the dyno.  I went to the EMC and that told me all I needed to know.  I took substandard and outdated junk up there and had the highest scored FE..........that was not my dyno!  I spent way too much money for no gain on that.  If I spent 30-40K and a chunk of my life, I could easily make their top 5 with a Ford FE, but if you do not win, for whatever reason, it is a waste of time and money.

I would rather focus on continuous R&D, accurate COMPARISON TESTING, and feedback from customers,  to improve the product we sell.  I do not worry or care what the other guys do, or how they do it, but it does piss me off pretty good when some Joe Blo implies either directly or indirectly, that my "numbers" are inflated.  To those fellers I say....before you judge, pick any class running FE's heads-up and bring it on.  The race track does not lie.  The rest is bullshit and speculation.

[Faron]

I am a bit Biased , as I got to work with Blair " aka " " Joe The Grinder' and he is as dedicated and humble as the come , we didnt see eye to eye on everything , But I learned a bunch while there , The Big thing we did agree on was Dyno's are nice for comparing , BUT as Blair said The Scoreboard / Time slip NEVER Lies , and That Is not open for interpretation 

[jayb]

Gotta disagree on that one, Faron.  There are fast tracks and slow tracks, and variations in the weather will have a significant effect on ET and MPH.  If you run your car on a cool day, with high air pressure, on one track, and then swap in your new motor, and go slower on a hot day, with low air pressure, at a different track, that really doesn't tell you if the new motor is more or less powerful than the old one.  By your "time slip never lies" logic, though, the new motor has less power, and that is faulty logic, in my opinion.  That's where a dyno is valuable, because it is the same "track" every time, and the weather station built into the dyno allows compensation for varying weather conditions.

There are variations in dynos, just like there are variations in race tracks.  Its difficult to compare numbers on engines that are from two different dynos, especially since there are so many "happy" dynos out there.  Plus, the dyno's weather compensation is really just a good estimate, not an absolute, pretty much like a density altitude compensation factor that you might use at the race track.  But if I've got two engines I've just run on a dyno, and one makes more average horsepower over the RPM range of interest than the other, I'm pretty convinced that's the one that will go faster on the track, on any given day.  I think if you look at average horsepower, over the RPM range of interest, you can always make the right performance decisions based on the dyno data.

[Barry_R]

I generally agree with what Brent and Blair said - with a couple minor, but personal exceptions.

I use my own dyno.  It's a sister to the one I used at Jim Stykes before purchasing it - both are older DTS4000 units purchased new within a year of each other in the late 1990s, and the same engine tested within 5 horsepower on both of them.  That was important to me because - like the others - I want comparable data so I can identify and quantify trends over time. 

The dyno data I post is from my machine, in my shop, with me operating it and does not directly reflect anybody else's information.  While I personally believe my machine to be accurate, I have never met a dyno owner yet who does not think their equipment is "tight" but the guy's down the road is generous or loose.  My installation and room are very nice, but we run through muffled exhaust because of neighbors.  The exhaust is huge 5" truck stuff and I do not think it hurts engines in the 500-800 HP ranges at all.

The forum noise has gotten bad enough that I rarely post the data lately because of some of the adverse commentary, conspiracy theory, and off the wall comparisons I see.  I had some YouTube guy try and compare a Cammer I did to a Sonny Leonard Pro Mod engine for gosh sakes.  And I have had other folks tell me that an engine we did did not make enough because they read in a magazine somewhere that it should make xxx or yyy with just a cam and an intake.  I will post up a brief comment where I see a combination that has done extremely well (I try to learn from those) - or one that visibly has further opportunities for improvement.  I should probably get around it and just start putting the information out there again and let the chips fall where they will. 

FWIW my pump has been used for multiple Detroit area EMC entries beyond my own, and has been reasonably comparable to the DTS installations at UNOH where the contest is run.  Last year was an anomaly as they pulled a bunch of the correction out of the contest numbers and pretty much ran us "straight up" - kinda startling until you saw everybody else's score in the same ranges.

My only gripe is using EMC as a point of reference, and then claiming its so easy that you ran with floor sweepings and junk.  Those comments are belittling to everybody who invests in and competes in the contest, and we both know that even in jest they are inaccurate.  Blair has entered that contest twice - and we are 50-50 for the best FE between us.  I put 100 points on him one year, he put 20 on me the next, and he has not returned since 2007.  There have been several others over the years, but none have ever been close.  Claiming that you could easily do a top five without entering is like me claiming that I could easily build a competitive Super Stock engine.  (Just in case anybody wonders about that let me make this perfectly clear - Blair builds some of the baddest assed Super Stock and Stock eliminator FE engines on earth and could absolutely and completely 100% kick my ass all over the planet if I was stupid enough to dare to try building one.)

[CaptCobrajet]

2008, not 2007.  I took a little motor in 2007 and it was completely the wrong combo, and a pig in my opinion.  It was done by me, wrongly, and I failed miserably.    I don't give a shit about 50/50?  I also am not belittling anyones effort.  I just know the quality and potential of what I took in '08, and I know the quality and potential of what I can do if I had a budget to use some of the stuff we sell to some customers.  What I drug in there was not on the same planet with some of the better stuff we have, but time and money did not allow that.  I spent about ten days on that stuff, and you will not win that contest with a ten day effort. I have not done it anymore because I think it is a waste of my time to attempt it, knowing that I cannot devote the time it would take to win the thing.  If I enjoyed it, it would be different, but racing dynos is not my idea of racing.  That is kinda like racing flow benches.  If I had time to screw around with a dyno race, these days, I would put my car together and go to a racetrack.

Talking about time slips that don't lie...........serious racers who visit several tracks on a regular basis, and have weather stations, know exactly whether or not their stuff is better than it was "last time"..............right down to hundredths.  You can never judge gains or losses on one track, one day, with no consideration of the conditions.  What I should have maybe said was.......win lights don't lie.  If you race another car in a class with the same rules heads-up, and outrun that CAR by .05, and then three weeks later after you work on your junk for two weeks, you race that same car that was not worked on for two weeks and outrun it by .08 at another track....... that there would be an improvement, and a real world one.  Racers know how fast their competitors are.  Most who are serious at heads-up racing can tell you how much their competition has gained or lost from the last race just about as accurately as they can their own car.  One of the best yardsticks is the Stock Eliminator qualifying sheet.  Those guys measure themselves against their rivals at every race on "the sheet".

I used to race alot...........like twenty weekends a year, sometimes visiting the same tracks several times.  Racing is like golf.  If you have a good teacher........the more you play, the better you will get..........if you pay attention.  I could not race as much now as I did several years ago........I am not in the same positions I used to be to enable that, but the benefits from serious competitive racing are burned in the brain, and can be applied over a long period of time.  Most improvements seen on a dyno will show improvement on a track, but some will go the opposite direction.  It IS possible to test a combo, make GAINS on a dyno, and slow down on a racetrack.  It has always been like that, and it will always be.  Carb sizing, port cross section, runner length, header primary size and length, and collector changes are just a few examples of items that may or may not show positives both places.  Stuff like cubic inches and compression ratios, parasitic drag, etc. will ALWAYS show the same direction both places.  Lightweight internals and valves/valvetrain will NEVER show up on a dyno, but will ALWAYS show up on a dragstrip.

[blykins]

Unfortunately, engine builders that are discussing dyno results may just as well be discussing abortion, politics, or religion....LOL

What it all boils down to is that for us who are selling horsepower (and I'm saying it that way because most guys wanna see the dyno sheets), we always end up in conversations where our stuff is being compared to somebody else's stuff. 

When my stuff is 100 hp down to somebody else's stuff when the components are essentially the same, I wanna know if it's the way my stuff was measured, or if I'm just stupid.   If it's the way it's measured, there's not much I can do about that.  If it's because I'm stupid, then I need to learn more and try harder.  Nothing wrong with that.

[CaptCobrajet]

Unfortunately, engine builders that are discussing dyno results may just as well be discussing abortion, politics, or religion....LOL

What it all boils down to is that for us who are selling horsepower (and I'm saying it that way because most guys wanna see the dyno sheets), we always end up in conversations where our stuff is being compared to somebody else's stuff. 

When my stuff is 100 hp down to somebody else's stuff when the components are essentially the same, I wanna know if it's the way my stuff was measured, or if I'm just stupid.   If it's the way it's measured, there's not much I can do about that.  If it's because I'm stupid, then I need to learn more and try harder.  Nothing wrong with that.

I understand what you are saying Brent, but the error in your statement is the assumption that because two engines may have some of the same parts involved, that they are "essentially the same".   I use the Stock Eliminator engines as an example again here, because they are among the most efficient and groomed engines on planet earth.  Take two guys with a SBC 302..........same block, crank, same pistons, same rods, same heads, same intake, same cam lift, same carb.....all required by the rules to be the same.  Both engines perfectly legal.  One guy I know of can go at least 3 tenths of a second faster than ANY other human on this planet with a 302 Chevy.  His engine has to be about 60 hp better than the other offerings to do that, but it is "essentially the same" engine, and definitely the same raw materials. Lots of sharp cookies have tried their hand against his stuff.......for 45 years now, but one still stands out as THE best 302.  Lots of ways to score, and lots of ways to lose power that stack up, or not, when doing an engine.  I often hear the statement that there is "nothing in a shortblock", but there is.  There is a ton of difference in a good valve job, and the best one for the purpose.  It goes all through the engine.  I don't know what the numbers are supposed to be on street or street/strip strokers............I just do what I think "right" is, and go with it.  Everybody does not have the same definitions for good or right, and nobody is always "right".  Your engines are respectable, and your passion to do a good job is also evident.  If a person is interested and dedicated, as you seem to be, you will keep making your own stuff better than your last one.  As long as you see and know the improvement, and pass it on to your customers, it really don't matter what the rest of us swingers are doing in our little corners. 

[blykins]

It's human nature to be competitive and to want to know how good you are at something.  When you have a couple of guys going at it on the track, sometimes it's easy to see which engine's making the power.  When you're comparing street or street/strip stuff, then we are having to resort to looking over our shoulders at other guys' dyno results. 

BTW, does your wife know you're a swinger? 

[CaptCobrajet]

Yeah, she knows it.  Too much Johnny Cash music has made me what I am, LOL.

[cjshaker]

  If it's because I'm stupid, then I need to learn more and try harder.  Nothing wrong with that.

I have nothing of value to add to the conversation except to inject a little reality into what Brent says here.

I know it was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but unless you have the opportunity to refine combinations with people willing to dump money into their engine combination, in the interest of becoming "the best", the learning process is a very long and tedious process at BEST. That hardly makes you stupid. If you can build an engine better than 90% of the people out there, that's still 1 in 10 that can beat it. From a serious builders prospective that would be extremely frustrating, even though in reality you still may be one of the best.

Some guys are mentored by the best in specific engines. That's something that's nearly impossible to compete with because they are building on years of cumulative experience. I swear some guys can think like an engine.

And then there's people like me

[Drew Pojedinec]

Guess I'm just lucky.  The engines I build don't have dynos big enough for them.

(Maybe they do, but we've never used one)

[blykins]

I have been blessed with some really good customers.  I'm on the 3rd iteration of a particular Tunnel Port build, whose owner has been extremely generous and gracious in letting me play.  Going from iteration 1 to iteration 2 basically bumped 100 hp, so he's getting the good end of the R&D. 

You are certainly correct though, if it were not for customers like the one I just mentioned, we are basically waiting for similar engine builds to come around, where we can change a specific part, like a camshaft, valve job, ring pack, etc. and see what the gains may be.  Blair gets the good end of the stick here, as he will give a customer an engine, then when he gets it back for freshening, he can do some analysis and see what can be changed.  It is more of a longer process for Barry and myself....we get to play with race engines, just not as much. 

I'm trying to come up with a couple of dyno mules so I can beat on them without worry...that's an excellent way of gaining data.  Data is good. 

[ec164]

IMHO   I don't think you need to have a race engine to take apart and study. Why not after break in and some serious effort on the dyno, take apart a 500 or 600 HP piece to study whats going on, do it in the evening leave phone off computer off and just sit back and take it all in, "think like an engine" as Doug said, learn from what you have, don't wait for another iteration or race engine. It's like paying for College at home just cheaper, a gasket set, some parts cleaner, fuel for the pump to see if it worked, and your time! Put your favorite music on soft for thinking even if it's not Johnny Cash
Then don't tell what you find just keep applying it and look for more, your numbers will climb!!.....................Al

[fekbmax]

Personally I think its great that a few of the great Fe engine builders reveal there dyno results and share to a certain extent there combination's . I realize that of course there going to maybe hold back a bit on some of the specks and I totally get it because they do put countless hours into research and development and its understandable that they wouldn't want to reveal every little trick and parts modification.  I think theres alot to be learned from what they do share though. I have countless amounts of articles from the 80's and 90's that Jim Kuntz and Keith Craft did and before the information overload of the internet that's pretty much all I had. Lots of phone conversations with Ron Miller and Jim Dove , both guys that have alot of knowledge but were not always the easiest guys to work with but back then that's what we had. Like them or not, they have a important place in keeping the FE alive back then. I been so mad at both of them i could spit fire but also i learned someting from them and had been lucky enough to get a few decent products from them. The new age of technology has opened up doors and contacts that back then I never had and I'm grateful for it but ill never forget those old Kuntz n Craft articles and everything I learned from them. All proven stuff .. Now theres the opportunity to see and hear about all these other great FE builders old and new, some that have been around carrying the FE torch that I just didn't know about. I was kinda late to the internet party anyway lol . Its always exciting to learn from them all. This is a great site and theres alot of good honest people with honest opinions and agree or disagree I think we are all very lucky to have all the information shared so freely. . I'm just a garage builder but my passion is FE and I have built many of them over the past 35 years and taken every tip and secrets that I can get and applied to them and have had good sauces with reliability and power.. How cool is it that the first Fe I ever built completely on my own was a 1963 406 back in 1980 when I was 15 working out of a old 10'x12' steel she ad.
I know I'm rambling but I guess what I'm saying is I want to thank all you guys for all you do for the FE. No matter it be a street cruiser or a hot rod beast or all out race engines which is what I'm most intrested in.. you guys are great.
 And Jay,  FE power .net kicks ass...

[Faron]

Sorry Jay I guess I should of said after 38+ years of Drag racing , I know when the Engine made more power , over the fact of weather conditions , I have been in Races where it was 9 rounds to win , AND I won , I am NOT a closet Racer , My Old Blown combo had over 1000 , thats right 1000 1/4 mile passes , I know what weather and track conditions are ( as i have told many BSD is .25-.30 slower than most ) but thanks for pointing that out You probably did NOT know that about me , and thats ok , I still consider you a Friend , My shoulders are Wide LOL  , this thread is what a forum is about , if all agreed , no one would post 

[Barry_R]

We all like this old motor - that's what unites us.
We are also all competitors - that's what get us up in the morning and working at getting better every day.
If we did not share a high degree of pride in our work, and strive for position we'd be selling vacuum cleaners or curtains...
This is not like the LS or small block forums - ain't no keyboard posers here.
But we do have "attitude" - we have to in order to succeed.
We can and do all get along and still poke at each other from time to time.
Its what racers do.

I'm an old Detroit area street racer and have a bazillion passes playing bracket racer as well.  Never ran a heads up type NHRA class though.  Faron - I'll betcha I might have even more passes on that old black Torino than you do .  Ran that sucker every day that the old Detroit Dragway was open for over ten years - sometimes they ran two or three nights per week.  Did the Division 3 bracket finals eight times IIRC.  I literally lived for that stuff.  And then I dragged it out on the street after the track was done for the evening and sprayed it through the night.  I think I singlehandedly kept many places solvent as I went through a LOT of parts learning my way.

[Faron]

You Might Barry, but ----- , I raced it in points series for 10 Plus Years in those 1996-2010, AND Street Driving , My point was not to say I have the most , just to point out ,I know combos and HP vs Weather changes , the Blower combo was just one of the combos in the car 1996-2010, BUt I have had the car since 1978 and it was raced from 1978-2010 , the 1000 passes was just on the LAST combo  and I am glad we have a FE Family , not all family gets along , all the time , BUT we are Family 

[ScotiaFE]

Ya' well Bucky has a really big screw driver.

[blykins]

IMHO   I don't think you need to have a race engine to take apart and study. Why not after break in and some serious effort on the dyno, take apart a 500 or 600 HP piece to study whats going on, do it in the evening leave phone off computer off and just sit back and take it all in, "think like an engine" as Doug said, learn from what you have, don't wait for another iteration or race engine. It's like paying for College at home just cheaper, a gasket set, some parts cleaner, fuel for the pump to see if it worked, and your time! Put your favorite music on soft for thinking even if it's not Johnny Cash
Then don't tell what you find just keep applying it and look for more, your numbers will climb!!.....................Al

I wish it were that simple, and it probably was a decade or so ago.   When you have 8-10 orders stacked up, with each customer calling to remind you that you're on a timeline, it's just not feasible (at least not for me anyway) to take time out and tear an engine back down. 

A lot of data comes from the dyno....horsepower, torque, how much jet a particular combination required, how the engine accelerated on the dyno, where the valve springs gave up, etc.  I can get by pretty well on that.  The data that comes from a teardown revolves around longevity....if a particular part needed more clearance, making sure things weren't "moving around", etc. 

[cjshaker]

Ya' well Bucky has a really big screw driver.

Lmao, Howie!! I'm giving you a score of 9.8 on that post.

[57 lima bean]

I tried to convince a racer that going through the traps on the rev limiter was not a good thing and to degear the car abit.He said thats where the engine made its peak power and it was only a 100 feet or so from the finish line.Telling this racer that a combo very close to mine was degeared three times with good results.I started with the gear they ended up with.Well.....we both ended up wreck'n stuff.Lord only knows what the over gear racer is do'n now.

[cammerfe]

I can learn more from just paying attention to this sort of bench racing than from most any other sort of input.

My thanks to all of you.

KS

[BigBlockFE]

Barry do you use your head now for most builds if the customer wants or do you still use the E head ported for certain builds, does it just matter what engine your trying to build or is your head ported superior to all E heads ported...

[Barry_R]

The below are gross generalities, and there are lots of situations where a different approach is either acceptable or desired.

I use my head for many builds where it is appropriate for the desired power and the budget.  On builds targeting 400-450 HP I will still use an Edelbrock piece. 

On builds targeting 450-500 I will use either a lightly modified Edelbrock or my head "as cast'

On builds targeting 500-600 I will generally use my head as cast. 

On stuff trying for 600 to 700+ I will use either a CNC ported Edelbrock, a CNC ported version of my casting, or an as cast Blue Thunder head.  Each has advantages or reasons to use beyond simple flow.  The CNC ported version of mine and the Blue Thunder will both outperform my iteration of a CNC ported Edelbrock, and have comparable flow numbers, but the BT has a much larger port cross section and volume.

I generally believe that my head design is better than the basic Edelbrock design in both unported and CNC ported versions.  I feel that it has greater potential than other medium riser foot print heads that would be compatible with unwelded cast intakes. Stating that it is "superior" to all E heads ported would be inaccurate considering the radical modifications possible with a Pro-Port version of the Edelbrock casting.  Iterations of the Edelbrock head that meet or exceed the performance potential of my CNC'd casting are likely to require substantial modification to both rocker systems and manifolds.

[fekbmax]

Grandma makes better chicken pastry but maa makes better pecan pie .. 
I'm just grateful that there are so many more chooses for us Fe guys.
I think that having all these heads in play, and a hand full (not alto) of great porter's and some good cnc programs to boot , as long as the en gin builder and head porter have good communication and understanding of the expectations then there will continue to be some serious power Fe's. 
Thanks for all you guys hard work and dedication to keeping the Fe in serious power and keeping it alive.

[BigBlockFE]

For example, right now your out of your head, if you needed a 600 hp street 482 you could get those numbers with a ported E head, what would be the disadvantges by not using your head, is it just the extra machining involved to get the E head to perform like your as stock or slightly worked on, for example keith craft racing will only use the E head with there machining, do they not like or use your head even if it does out perform, it sees a no brainer everyone would want to use the best or what would appear to be just as good with less head work involved...most builders I have spoke with will use all heads if need be, (brands)...

[blykins]

The biggest plus with Barry's head or the BBM head is that you can pull one out of the box and already be 30-40 cfm over what an Edelbrock head will do, plus you gain the modern combustion chamber shapes. 

Keith will use several different FE heads (Pond, Edelbrock, etc.) but he has a lot of equity in his CNC head machine and the programs that he has written/modified over the years for the Edelbrock head.  You'll also see that he has various "stages" of head work, 1-3, that differ in both pricing and performance. 

[Barry_R]

As Brent said - each builder has his own strategy and approach.  My head was designed as a bolt on piece targeting the 500-600 HP range engine, with the addition of modern chamber design and a relocated spark plug. 

We were working to bring the basic head up to current standards in terms of efficiency, flow at a modest cross section and volume for torque and transient response, and fuel tolerance.  Using a pair of modified Edelbrocks will get you similar peak power numbers but at the cost of other variables, and trading labor/machining time for the more expensive castings.

At 600HP you are reaching the design limits in an as cast condition and modification becomes needed to move significantly beyond that.  I have had multiple builds using the as cast head in the 560-600 ranges but none significantly above that.  In order to move further porting is necessary, and the altered internal water jackets required by my casting's port layout provide added room for port profiles not possible with the normal Edelbrock casting.

At one point I provided Keith a pair of castings for evaluation,  After several weeks he decided to return them.  They had not been altered or even had a valve job done, so I can only assume that they decided to continue with the Edelbrock based program they'd already developed rather than try to work with something different.

[lovehamr]

At one point I provided Keith a pair of castings for evaluation,  After several weeks he decided to return them.  They had not been altered or even had a valve job done, so I can only assume that they decided to continue with the Edelbrock based program they'd already developed rather than try to work with something different.

Am I the only one who finds that bizarre?  Why would he do that?

[jayb]

Probably to see what the competition is up to...

[Barry_R]

I provided them to him free so that he could evaluate them.  As Brent noted, he has a lot of time and effort invested into his Edelbrock based program, which obviously works well for him, and simply decided to continue on with that.  A perfectly rational business decision.

[BigBlockFE]

It's always a business decision...

[cjshaker]

You have to make good business decisions....if you want to stay in business.

Fortunately for us, there are lots of guys here making bad business decisions, which provides us with several aftermarket parts to choose from

[fekbmax]

Personally I'm grateful for ALL the heads available.  The old Dove heads, had a set of Canadian Cj's that yes it took almost two years to get but a excellent head porter here worked them for over a month and they turned out great. The blue thunder heads and a the variations they had (have). Edelbrock heads for helping Fe's get opened up to more performance parts. Pond for doing his thing and Barry for the felony heads and BBM for there contributions. 
I just believe that we are lucky to have choices and I think the hand full of great Fe head porters can help make any of these heads exceptional. . Idk if you guys are knocking the Edelbrock head or what but back in the pro nostalgia days a many of these heads (as well as a few Dove heads) properly worked and a good cnc program pushed 3200 - 3500 lb cars to near mid 8's. 15 years later we have more chooses and more engine builders pushing the envelope.  With all these guys working so hard and all the R n D I'm just waiting for that first 2400 lb 6 second Fe.   

[whitea62.7t]

That would be awesome to see