Installing an FE main stud girdle

[Gaugster]

What if that girdle would be say inch and A half thick.
Mill A pocket for oil pump breathing/oil/pipe holes beetween caps,plate and sump to keep oil inside or just plate if dry sump.
Definently not worth if you pay for the labor but if you have A mill and sparetime (and couple of turbos to split the cylinder walls;))

The kit comes with an extended oil pump shaft to make up for the thickness of the girdle. A thicker design would need hardware to complement. Here's an article I found while considering the girdle option. It talks about 1.5 to 2" thick options. I don't know anything good or bad about Hughes Engines but ya know those Mopar guys are crazy. 

http://www.hughesengines.com/TechArticles/2mainbearingstudgirdles04232007.php

[jayb]

John, I really wanted to do one of these to see what was involved, so thanks to you for bringing it up so I could install it - Jay

[MeanGene]

I got one of the first kits from Tim, about 10 yrs ago- to be fair, he is a good machinist, but not an engine shop guy, and made one for a buddy when asked, so that's why the install directions are a bit iffy. I had the help of a very good engine guy who is a whiz on the mill, and had to feel our way through it as Jay did. It came with washers to sit on the caps, and no mention of fitting or trimming the pan rail or washers in the "directions". Someone suggested the straps to him, so he sent me a set, and I also did not like the idea of flat-cutting the caps as it would weaken them, so the washers were fitted. Everything else went as in Jay's install, except one thing my pea brain dreamed up, that after trimming the pan rails, it left the timing cover hanging down a bit below the rails. I always try to install the covers by letting them self-center on the seal and then snug up, so the misalignment might cause a leak with the stock gasket, plus if one took the cover off later for a cam change or whatever, the cover would not seat correctly, but be pressured up and put the seal out of alignment. I set it up on the BP and took a .030 cut off the area that met the cover, instead of cutting the cover, so any cover could be used. Installed the cover as usual, which left a small gap to the girdle. Installed the girdle with some RTV, and a bigger bead where the cover sits, fit great.

[pbf777]

The block really needs to be align honed before hand so that the cap mating surfaces would be "prepped" before you start to machine the tops of the caps and fit the girdle, then you need to align hone the entire assembly once installed (or at least bore gauge the mains again) so that there are no chances that the clamping of the girdle affects the main bore alignment. 

     In our experience installing these girdles, they will influence the bore roundness not so much alignment (if things were squared properly), so we always align-hone the block less the girdle to a point in the process of believing that no additional cutting of the caps will be necessary, stop short of final size, finish all machining for fitment of the girdle, install and torque to spec., then finish the final to bore size honing.  Skipping this process will most often leave one with out-of-round bores!     

     And yes, your example block was a 'good-one', as they have proven in our experience in the past to often demonstrate quite greater deviations in measurement, as I find it necessary to re-machine the block to cap register surfaces to level as well, and with this I end with all equal dimension from that position onward (no select fit shimming      ), and also if you check the left/right registers you'll find them also not in alignment at times.     

     Scott. 

 

[WConley]

... I kind of figured that indicating off the main registers on any block would show them all to be pretty close to flat.  I've got to believe that the main registers are all machined in one pass at the factory; how could they be way off?  Maybe running for 100,000+ miles in the car or truck warps or twists the block?  ...

Yeah, the saddles were machined together in one big broaching pass.  The problem is that the block material was still green.  100K miles of thermal cycles and load will tend to move the material around a bit as internal stresses relieve.

[My427stang]

I don't have anything to back it up, but I think that anything you can do to dissipate whatever harmonics are happening on those two unsupported mains would help.

The majority of the #2 and #4 issues I see are with low rpm propane industrials, and they sure aren't overpowering the block!  #1 to a lesser extent and #5 are supported by some material around them, #3, even if it's not direct support has a thrust touching it, but the other two I think, could be cross bolted, girdled, pinned, if you could control expansion, even the goofy "wedge bolts" Gene was making fun of could "in theory....not in my shop" LOL help with potentially killing the harmonics at that main.

Right or wrong, they sure do break.  Standard practice for me is 1-spot check with sonic, 2-clean, 3-mag and pressure, 4 - then machine.  I will even pay extra if it comes with a "money back if #2 and #4 are cracked" guarantee

[frnkeore]

I've thought about installing a girdle on my industrial engine but, the girdle price ($450) stops me. I realize there isn't the same volume as SB's but, I always set limits on what I'll pay for something. So, I've thought about how I would install one.

I wasn't aware that the saddles were off that much. I didn't measure the saddle height when I had my Edsel on the mill. So, I think that I would start this, by paralleling the saddles at #1 & 5 and taking a clean up cut on the top of the china walls. That would give you the best average height to lean up the saddles.

I would diffidently use dowel pins in either 4 or 6 locations, inline with the center mains and I would use 3/8 Pull Dowels, to do that, they have a 10x32 thread so, you can take them back out. You would drill and ream the girdle 3/8, giving a .0002 press, in both the block and girdle, locating the girdle with 4 flathead bolts, to center it first. 

Regarding making all the c'bores the same, I would install the caps and then run a 1" sq bar across them (shimming if necessary) to hold them in place, then c'bore. Then come back a ream 5/8" x .32 dp. Then use the below doweling.

Finally, before honing, I would use 5/8 hollow dowels, for each bolt, from the girdle, into the caps. Only going into the cap ~5/16". Since the spacer thickness would be fixed, the dowel section could be integral with the spacer. Of course the trust would have to be aligned first. The hollow dowels could be a press fit into the girdle. set the girdle on the caps, work it down, install the 3/8 dowels and torque. You could also use hollow dowels at the bottom but, you'd have to do that first, after surfacing the register area.

[70tp]

What kind of sealer is commonly used between the girdle and block?   And does the sealer thickness , if any, affect the shim height?   Maybe an o ring groove would be an option, idk?

[Gaugster]

What kind of sealer is commonly used between the girdle and block?   And does the sealer thickness , if any, affect the shim height?   Maybe an o ring groove would be an option, idk?

Kit comes with Permatex. Presumably it will be compressed out of the mating surface and only take up any gaps.

[jayb]

It might be possible to drill some little divots in the spacers, and then Permatex them to the girdle so that they wouldn't get mixed up.  JB Weld would be even better.  Just a thought...

[GerryP]

I think that junction would be the perfect application for hylomar.  It is made for sealing on metal-to-metal.

[JERICOGTX]

Jay, does anyone make aluminum main caps for a FE? On higher HP stock block Mopar's, it's best to use an aluminum main cap setup. The main webs are the weak link, and using aluminum, it acts as a cushion, and doesn't beat the main webs out of the block.

[Gaugster]

Personally I think I should be able to tag and bag the spacers in order to keep them organized. I'd wonder about where those bonding materials could migrate too if it was applied heavy and loosen up during use. Plenty of warnings out there on the internet about messed up oil pumps and bearing surfaces due to excessive gasket makers on oil pans, intakes etc...

[jayb]

Jay, does anyone make aluminum main caps for a FE? On higher HP stock block Mopar's, it's best to use an aluminum main cap setup. The main webs are the weak link, and using aluminum, it acts as a cushion, and doesn't beat the main webs out of the block.

I don't know of anyone making aluminum main caps for the FE.  For a brief time, the Shelby aluminum blocks came with aluminum caps, but they quickly reverted to steel caps, I assume due to customer complaints. 

It's interesting that the big block Mopars seem to really like the aluminum caps, but that they are viewed as a negative in the FE world.  Maybe different failure mechanisms between the blocks, making aluminum caps work better on the Mopar blocks than on the FE?

[JERICOGTX]

The aluminum caps are only used on iron blocks. My INDY block, which is aluminum, has billet steel caps. On a stock block, the aluminum dampens the shock the caps put on the main webs. Some people use billet steel caps, but those are thought of transferring MORE stress to the main webs.

Are the main webs a weak link in a stock block FE? If not, what is to be gained by a girdle for them?