Searching for a cam

[bushwackr]

Im trying to find a replica of the ford C3AZ-6250-T cam . Its a solid lifter cam from 64-65 390

[cammerfe]

I built a 390 some years ago for a series of articles I wrote for Mustang Illustrated Magazine. The purpose of the project was to look at what the latest technological advances might make possible.

When I had most of the pieces picked-out, I approached Comp Cams for their recommendation. I told them I wanted a solid 'street' roller with the 'manners' of the 'AA' cam from the mid '60s, an idle somewhat lower than 1000, and the mid-range and upper RPM to go past 6K easily. They wanted head flow data, car (truck) weight and gearing, among other things. The engine created beyond 500 horsepower and would pull strong to beyond 7K RPM. It idled at 800-850, with a mild but distinct lope.

Talk to a cam grinder. A good one will do you right. We have learned a lot about cam-shaft design since the mid-'60s.

KS

[stroked67]

Check out cam research group (CRG) in Denver Colorado. They specialize in Ford cams. They custom ground one for my 463 stroker, it's a solid roller.

[blykins]

  Talk to a cam grinder. A good one will do you right. We have learned a lot about cam-shaft design since the mid-'60s. 

My advice would be to call an engine builder who specializes in the particular engine you're building.   

Bushwackr, if you have the exact specs, that cam should be easy to replicate using Bullet or Comp Cams lobes.

[bushwackr]

Thank You all for the info   

[Lowrider]

Im trying to find a replica of the ford C3AZ-6250-T cam . Its a solid lifter cam from 64-65 390

Would you happen to have the specs for that C3AZ-6250-T cam?

[bushwackr]

yes i do I will put them on when I get home tonight

[cammerfe]

Google 'C3AZ-T Ford cam' and you'll get a bunch of crap and several entries that are actually worthwhile. About the 4th or 5th entry is one that mentions 'Mercury' and cam specs. Click on it and go to the second green entry down. It gives all the 'T' info. Mild solid-lifter cam. We've learned a lot since that time.

KS

[scott foxwell]

Give Chris Straub a call. The cam has no idea what label is on the engine. Chris is probably one of the best cam designers in the country. You'd probably be very surprised to hear who's FE's are running his cam.

[blykins]

Based on a recent experience, I still stand by my original statement.....call an engine builder who’s familiar with the engine family you’re working on.

[My427stang]

So to the original poster, two things here

1 - If you are looking for the C3AZ-6250-T cam for a reason, for instance you want a true blue restoration (for whatever reason) easy to have it custom ground.  Cam companies have a ton of lobes to pick from.  Nice thing is, today, as Brent and I discuss regularly, you can add some lobe taper, Nitride treatment, etc to make it less likely to bite during break in, you can do that on a stock cam or a hot solid flat tappet.

That cam is a 282 adv I/E, .440 lift, 114 LSA on 112.5 ICL.  Very old school and would require 10.75:1 compression in a 390.  It would run decent if you blueprinted an engine to match that cam, but you could get better with modern lobes and cam timing that uses more of the intake stroke and likely make significantly more power, even with similar manners if that is the goal.

2 - I will tell you this, it's true a cam doesn't know what color the engine is, but it does need to match the engine design if you are going to spend the money. Runner lengths, port cross section, lift limitations, port flow characteristics, exhaust port and header design, just to name a few are different on every engine.  It's far better to have someone who has experience with your engine as you can be double digit HP off, or kill certain portions of the curve, but end up paying more. 

If the pure resto doesn't apply, post what you are trying to do with the car, as well as the other details of the build, many of the guys on this forum can set you straight. Keep in mind, to optimize, everything has to be measured.  Also, even if it is a stock resto, a modern cam can be made to sound like the stocker, but perform better in your RPM range.

[scott foxwell]

2 - I will tell you this, it's true a cam doesn't know what color the engine is, but it does need to match the engine design if you are going to spend the money. Runner lengths, port cross section, lift limitations, port flow characteristics, exhaust port and header design, just to name a few are different on every engine.  It's far better to have someone who has experience with your engine as you can be double digit HP off, or kill certain portions of the curve, but end up paying more. 

If you're having a custom cam made the the designer doesn't ask about those things, you need another cam designer.
Again, I recommend Chris Straub. Ask Kaase about his FE cams...

[blykins]

A cam "designer" sits down with some 4th derivative equations and mathematically designs lobes around position, velocity, acceleration, and jerk. 

A cam "spec'er" picks a couple of lobes off the Bullet lobe catalog, has them grind it, then sticks it in a white box and charges $595 for it. 

[scott foxwell]

A cam "designer" sits down with some 4th derivative equations and mathematically designs lobes around position, velocity, acceleration, and jerk. 

A cam "spec'er" picks a couple of lobes off the Bullet lobe catalog, has them grind it, then sticks it in a white box and charges $595 for it.

Are you insinuating that's what Chris does? If so, you couldn't me more wrong and obviously know nothing about his cams.
BUT...
Whatever. SOS here. I know, I know...the FE is "special". 

[blykins]

So you're saying that Chris grinds the cams in-house, there at his shop?

[scott foxwell]

So you're saying that Chris grinds the cams in-house, there at his shop?

No, and you know that's not the case but you're mistaken about what he does. He designs the lobe and has the cam ground either to his design or to a lobe in a library that closest matches his design. He has his own software for lobe design. One reason a lot of guys come to him is that he can design lobes for oddball engines where there is no option. Now we're doing diesels and have a cylinder head (my port program) and cam package (his design) for the Duramax, three of the Fords and the Cummins. He has the only core available for one of the engines (not sure which one) and all the lobes are 100% his design and like I said, he's done plenty of FE's.
That's pretty much all I have to say.

[blykins]

So you're saying that Chris grinds the cams in-house, there at his shop?

...or to a lobe in a library that closest matches his design.

Which is essentially what I was saying earlier.   

A lot of us choose camshafts that way.  Again, I think you may underestimate a lot of the builders on this forum, but dealing with the same engine over and over allows us to try different things on the dyno.  We are not NAPA machine shop rebuilders here.  That involves a lot of A-B tests, or even building the same combination over and over, but changing one part or spec to see the outcome.   I will say that I've only used one off-the-shelf camshaft to my knowledge in all the years that I've been building engines.  The others have been custom grinds from Bullet, Comp, Lunati, or Crane, and each lobe has been chosen carefully after looking very closely at the entirety of engine specs.  I am not a camshaft designer.  I am a camshaft "spec'er".  I do know a few guys who can take a set of differential equations and turn them into a lobe design and those guys are on a different level....Mike Jones, Harold Brookshire, etc. 

The camshaft that Chris gave me to try for my 351C pet project had Bullet lobes on it.  It was easy to cross reference them from his cam card that he had typed out to Bullet's lobe catalog.   I know Bullet has had some "employee rearranging" lately, so he may not use Bullet now, but the camshaft he sent me was indeed picked from the Bullet lobe catalog. 

I am not at all trying to detract from Chris' reputation.  He was extremely fair with me and even though he charged me pretty heftily up front, he left me with the clause that I could return it with a refund if I wasn't happy with it.  I ended up returning the camshaft to him since his choice was 28 peak hp and 9 average horsepower down from the camshaft I had ground.  Peaks were within 250 rpm of each other.  He accepted it back and refunded me, no questions asked.   Commendable. 

We've kinda gone a long way around to get to this point, but my underlying theme in this thread (and a few others) has been that it's often better to ask an engine builder who has extensive experience in one particular engine family for a camshaft recommendation on a camshaft. 

[Barry_R]

A cam "designer" sits down with some 4th derivative equations and mathematically designs lobes around position, velocity, acceleration, and jerk. 

I have met a few of those folks.  Among those were Brookshire, Hubbard, Crane, Godbold and of course Isky.  Without exception they seem to be an interesting breed.  One "foot" planted in the mathematical world and the other in automotive.  The dreams they create on paper - or keyboard - must then be replicated in alloy.  Previously they were limited by the constraints of a cam grinding machine, but now they can use a Landis CNC to make stuff that was nearly ungrindable back in the day.  With a focus on low volume and development, not many places have those, and outside of Comp they are often not household names (Andrews, LSM, OE suppliers, etc).

Perhaps the only tidbit I have gained regarding FE camshaft selection over the past few decades is that there exist no correct or perfect cam - only those which are closer or further away from the ideal.  Every professional race team I have visited has a collection of sticks - some very expensive - that are shelved awaiting another opportunity as the rest of the combination evolves.  Yet race selection is an area where a winner can be more easily decided based on dyno and track performance.  On a street build the other variables of vehicle and perception mean that "cam A" is too wild for a certain customer, and too timid for another - yet both of them are correct.

[scott foxwell]

So you're saying that Chris grinds the cams in-house, there at his shop?

...or to a lobe in a library that closest matches his design.

Which is essentially what I was saying earlier.   

A lot of us choose camshafts that way.  Again, I think you may underestimate a lot of the builders on this forum, but dealing with the same engine over and over allows us to try different things on the dyno.  We are not NAPA machine shop rebuilders here.  That involves a lot of A-B tests, or even building the same combination over and over, but changing one part or spec to see the outcome.   I will say that I've only used one off-the-shelf camshaft to my knowledge in all the years that I've been building engines.  The others have been custom grinds from Bullet, Comp, Lunati, or Crane, and each lobe has been chosen carefully after looking very closely at the entirety of engine specs.  I am not a camshaft designer.  I am a camshaft "spec'er".  I do know a few guys who can take a set of differential equations and turn them into a lobe design and those guys are on a different level....Mike Jones, Harold Brookshire, etc. 

The camshaft that Chris gave me to try for my 351C pet project had Bullet lobes on it.  It was easy to cross reference them from his cam card that he had typed out to Bullet's lobe catalog.   I know Bullet has had some "employee rearranging" lately, so he may not use Bullet now, but the camshaft he sent me was indeed picked from the Bullet lobe catalog. 

I am not at all trying to detract from Chris' reputation.  He was extremely fair with me and even though he charged me pretty heftily up front, he left me with the clause that I could return it with a refund if I wasn't happy with it.  I ended up returning the camshaft to him since his choice was 28 peak hp and 9 average horsepower down from the camshaft I had ground.  Peaks were within 250 rpm of each other.  He accepted it back and refunded me, no questions asked.   Commendable. 

We've kinda gone a long way around to get to this point, but my underlying theme in this thread (and a few others) has been that it's often better to ask an engine builder who has extensive experience in one particular engine family for a camshaft recommendation on a camshaft.

What part of "He designs the lobe" do you not understand? He does a lot of cams where there is no catalog to "pick" from, has the master created, and owns the lobe. The diesel stuff is a perfect example.
I do not underestimate anyone. Just get a little tired of the whole FE is somehow "special" mentality. It's an engine. It has peculiarities just like any other engine. It has areas that need focus just like any other engine but for a good engine builder those areas and peculiarities should become obvious when building the engine. Knowing the needs and quirks of an FE doesn't make anyone here "better" than anyone else, and that's how many of you come across, like you know some special engine building secrets that NO one else knows. Big fish in a really really small pond mentality. I offer a suggestion for a source for a custom cam from someone who KNOWS FE's, and this is the crap it leads to.
Who needs it.
As far as your results with Chris, like I told you in your PM, that's not something I can really speak to. My guess is, knowing Chris and how most of these types of stories work out, there's more to the story and the cam he sold you probably did exactly what it was supposed to. Besides, when I look at Chris' track record and how well his cams typically perform, maybe he did miss one. I'm sure it happens to everyone. Maybe you missed on some of the information you gave him. Who knows. It's hardly a consensus. You seem to jump to a lot of unfounded conclusions and I can tell you you're 100% wrong about Chris.
Now, I'm done with this subject.

[scott foxwell]

A cam "designer" sits down with some 4th derivative equations and mathematically designs lobes around position, velocity, acceleration, and jerk. 

I have met a few of those folks.  Among those were Brookshire, Hubbard, Crane, Godbold and of course Isky.  Without exception they seem to be an interesting breed.  One "foot" planted in the mathematical world and the other in automotive.  The dreams they create on paper - or keyboard - must then be replicated in alloy.  Previously they were limited by the constraints of a cam grinding machine, but now they can use a Landis CNC to make stuff that was nearly ungrindable back in the day.  With a focus on low volume and development, not many places have those, and outside of Comp they are often not household names (Andrews, LSM, OE suppliers, etc). I would say a cam is "correct" if it gives the end user the results he was looking for.

Perhaps the only tidbit I have gained regarding FE camshaft selection over the past few decades is that there exist no correct or perfect cam - only those which are closer or further away from the ideal.  Every professional race team I have visited has a collection of sticks - some very expensive - that are shelved awaiting another opportunity as the rest of the combination evolves.  Yet race selection is an area where a winner can be more easily decided based on dyno and track performance.  On a street build the other variables of vehicle and perception mean that "cam A" is too wild for a certain customer, and too timid for another - yet both of them are correct.

I'd say a cam is correct if it gives the customer the desired results.

[blykins]

I think Chris would be a little better off if he didn't have you for a PR rep.  It seems like your personality conflicts with a lot of others. 

I do agree with you in the fact that each engine does present its own peculiarities.  However, there isn't an engine builder alive that has nailed the perfect combo on the first shot, and most often, a cam "designer" isn't in touch enough with the customer to get valuable feedback.  As a result, cam specs don't evolve, and you have grinders recommending the same cam specs as they did 50 years ago.  The guys who see 100's of engines from the same family are the ones who really push through some of the technical mumbo-jumbo and make improvements. 

Your common response to anyone who is looking for a camshaft on any of the forums is always a knee-jerk "Call Chris Straub."  In my own specific case, he missed the boat by almost 30 hp (after telling me that his cam would be 30 hp OVER mine) and I think that if he would have had more experience with a Cleveland 4V cylinder head, the outcome may have been a little different.   

There was not more to the story as you suggested and I'd be glad to copy the email that I sent Chris into this thread to show you the specs that I sent him.  It was a rather extensive list of specifications and he didn't ask for anything more.  The only caveat was that he asked where I wanted the peak hp rpm to be and I told him that I would like for it to be between 7000-7500.  Obviously the heads worked a little better than expected as both cams peaked between 7800-8000.  And just to answer the question in advance, at 7000 rpm his cam made 567 hp vs. my cam's 582.  At 7500 his cam made 584 vs. my cam's 602.  I tried to be as fair as I could possibly be, even favoring the pushrod geometry towards Chris' cam and ordering pushrods as such, since the base circle was .030" smaller.   

And that puts me back to my original statement....it's better to call someone who has extensive experience with a particular family. 

Chris may nail the next 4 in a row on an A-B dyno test.  However, based on my experience, it would be hard for me to justify spending the money and spending a day on the dyno swapping cams to find out. 

[jayb]

Let's get back on topic with this thread, please...

[garyv]

Bushwackr my advice is to listen to and support the builders that contribute a lot of time and knowledge to our FE forums. Barry, Blair and Brent are all extremely capable of advising you on a proper cam for your build.  Just give them the information they need such as bore, stroke, heads, flow if known, valve size, etc and intended use. I would put any of the 3's knowledge against others out there.
If you just want a cam to match that one call Ken at Oregon Cams and he can grind it for you. If you want a custom cam that will work better give one of these guys a call.
I'll leave it at that.


garyv

[fryedaddy]

i dont know that much about cams,but when the big boys speak,i listen.my next cam will definitely be chosen from advice of the big boys.if i can get it

[bushwackr]

I Thank all of you for the help.  I'm going to call Howards and Schneider's for a recommendation.      I have a set of c6ae-r heads and matching intake to use on it , compression will be a touch higher than 9.5:1.  It will be running a summit efi and converted dist with 6al box backed by 3.50 rear and a c6 . Any Recommendation for a cam.    I talked to 2 shops they tell me a cam similar to a 268 comp will run good. Well I hated that cam in a 388 sbc so I don't know how I would like it in a 390

[bushwackr]

Oh ya , just the truck will be just a fun driver, 5000 rpm tops, 30 over stock stroke

[scott foxwell]

I have a Straub custom ground hyd roller for sale ground for a basically stock 390. I upped the anti on my build and had another cam ground so this one is available. New in the box. It's in the private classifieds.